From Tragedy to Betrayal: Lessons from the Brown Cheating Scandal

It's easy to toss blame around in considering Brown University Professor Roberto Serrano's discovery of mass cheating in his course "Welfare Economics and Social Choice Theory." He had tried to be compassionate, after the tragic campus shooting that had devastated the entire community, so he offered a take-home exam, only to be faced with the betrayal of dozens of students. Was this a professor who should have done better, a failure of student conduct staff or students who lack a moral center? There are more questions than answers we should all be asking ourselves in this case, and we hope you're join the conversation and reflection. 

Brown University Cheating Resources:

• https://www.insidehighered.com/news/faculty/learning-assessment/2026/07/08/brown-professor-suspects-most-his-class-used-ai-cheat
• https://www.chronicle.com/article/the-ivy-league-cheating-scandal-no-one-wants-to-talk-about

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:09

Hello and welcome to Ms. Behavior, the podcast for college student conduct professionals. My name is Colette.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

And my name is Kurt.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

We're your hosts, and we are going to do some timely news response today.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Yes. So we were talking recently about an article by Emma Whitford in Inside Higher Education. And the title is Brown Professor Suspects Majority of His Class Used AI to Chat. Now, Clette, you and I have talked about this offline a little bit, but quick summary. Following the terrible mass shooting at Brown, this professor gave his students the opportunity to take home, I think it was a midterm exam, and immediately noticed that these students did exceptionally well on the midterm when historically, you know, there was a nice bell-shaped curve of outcomes for students. A lot of these students were scoring in the 80s and 90 percents. I think that was the number. And he became suspicious of the fact that possibly they had used AI and cheated. So I think he shared his speculation with the students and then decided, uh, since nobody fessed up that he was going to use the final exam as sort of a challenge exam and said, we're gonna do the in-person, uh the final as an in-person exam. And if everybody does equally as well, I was wrong. But if you all tank, I'm gonna assume that you did not do your own work on the midterm, and I'm going to uh declare the midterm null and void. And in response, a bunch of students just dropped the class.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

Like 30, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Like it was a lot. And then on top of that, the students who did take the final did not do well uh by and large. I think there was one student who did exceptionally well in the midterm and then also nearly aced the uh the final as well. So, you know, in the professor's mind, I think this just sort of proved that the students had cheated and he was working with folks at Brown to, you know, how do we address this? And this was the craziest thing for me. They're like, oh yeah, just you know, manually put in 50 incident reports um on the situation and we'll take we'll take care of it. We'll take it from there. So I that's the the big overview. I didn't, I haven't I looked for an update to see if there was any kind of update on the article. I haven't seen anything. This is just from July 8th, though, so it's only been nine days since it was published. But Colette, what what were your thoughts as you're reading through this?

SPEAKER_02 2:59

I have so many thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Me too. And it's about different aspects of this. So go, go.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

Of course, I'm a student conduct person. And the thing that immediately, you know, I there are lots of headlines to read in Insight Higher Ed each day, but his criticism of their student conduct response caught my eye first. This is where I'd love to just talk to the all of them and hear the story not filtered through reporter or him, but you know, did they really ask him to put in 50 incident reports? And I know some schools might, and they would just say this is our process, but I just saw so many parts of this in general where the theme was lack of imagination. Could they have used AI somehow to help sort out each individual submission or I like somehow make it easier to deal with the huge quantity that the professor was dealing with?

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Yeah, I for me, I immediately think how when I was doing student conduct work, how hard it was to get faculty to buy into what we did, and then to have a faculty member reach out and say, I just identified this huge mass cheating problem and I need your help in solving it, and to throw red tape at the problem. To me, it felt like it was not the right way to approach that. I don't know that I have a solution as to how I would handle it, but I mean, my first instinct is how do I work with the professor to address their concern and support them in what they have seemed to have uncovered.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Could we do this together as partners?

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

I remember so like our book club, the dissertation we read, there was a student in that study that talked about how he felt, I think his name was Daniel in the study. He said, I felt like my hearing officer treated me pretty fairly and I the outcome seemed fair. But the professor in the class that reported me, whoo, that was a totally different thing. They did not want to hear my side of the story. They were mean. They, you know, it was really hard to go back to class and have to face him. And I don't know whether Professor Serrano from Brown is a bit of a curmudgeon. If the conduct folks had reached out and said, can we sit down together and go through all this information and find a pathway forward as partners? Would he have been open to that? I hope so. But it's hard to tell because I read some of his quotes, like, oh, he's pretty mean and he is looking for some retribution, but that might not be a fair characterization.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Yeah. I I just think about, you know, I think I was probably team Serrano in one regard because I think so many colleges right now are struggling with how to deal with artificial intelligence. What's the right way for students to use it? How do you address it when they are possibly using it for not so great purposes? But the reality is that, you know, AI has been, I think of myself as an early adopter. I think it was January 2024 when I started dabbling with it. So it's been two and a half years. And if colleges and universities are still trying to figure out how to respond to things like plagiarism and using AI for cheating, then I can understand a professor's frustration and like, what do you mean you don't have this figured out?

SPEAKER_02 6:46

And I think he said he was facing criticism from his peers who were like, You did what? You gave them a take-home exam these days? Come on, dum-dum. He was trying to be kind after the tragedy that their whole community had dealt with. And so there was some victim blaming in a way of like, well, how dare you give a take-home exam? I don't know how to wrap my head around that.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

And I I think about am I remembering that the school that we work for had an honor code?

SPEAKER_02 7:18

I I don't remember.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

I don't know if they exist anymore. I I think that, you know, in my mind, this is a situation like here's a professor trying to do something nice and it's met with a mass cheating scandal instead of like, hey, it was super chill that he's letting us do this. Let's do this the right way. But I also think, you know, what is an appropriate institutional response to grades in general when something like this happens? You know, is this a situation where you just say, this was a tragedy for our entire campus? There may be good reason why these students thought, you know what, I'm it's too much right now, but I don't want to fail. So I'm going to use AI. In which case I would say, from an institutional standpoint, maybe we just say we're not doing grades this semester. We're giving everybody a pass and because of what happened, and then we're going to pick back up in the spring semester and go from there.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

What I did not see in this, and now I'm I've got it pulled up and wanted to scroll through to see if I'm wrong. I don't remember that they talked to any student.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

I did not see any students in there as well. I think there was actually, was there commentary from people at other schools, if I'm remembering correctly?

SPEAKER_02 8:30

I see they've quoted an organizational theorist. Uh they got a pretty short uh curt response from the conduct office, which is probably their MO.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

You know, we talked about uh in one of our recent podcasts about qualitative studies and student voices and understanding the student experience. To me, Emma, if you're listening, this would be a fascinating opportunity to ask if any students would talk to you off the record and just understand this. I mean, I would gobble that article up.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

I mean So copy paste that and I would send the same request to my conduct colleagues at Brown.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Could you talk to some students off the record and just ask what was going on in that class?

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:22

There is research about why students cheat. One thing is when students say, if the professor is boring and they just dial it in all semester, I'm just gonna dial it in when I do my homework and my exams. And the the professor didn't earn my respect enough to not cheat, which sounds horrible. But if that's the reality we're we're living with, okay, that's our starting place now to start growing as a community.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

For me, the reality is that we we really, as a as a profession, have to get our ducks in a row about what what we are and are not using AI for and how we talk to students about when it is and is not appropriate to use it. I I don't think it's realistic to tell them that they can't use it. They're gonna use it at work, but it's in my mind a form of information literacy. Like how do you verify that what you're getting is accurate? How do you use AI to generate your own work product and make it better? What is plagiarism in the world of AI and what is not?

SPEAKER_02 10:25

I'm noticing that after the midterm, when he was trying to reset, he didn't talk to students. He sent them a message about his concerns about the cheating. And he told them, it says in a message to students after the midterm, he told them that he suspected many of them of using AI to cheat. And with the blessing of the dean, he was gonna have an in-person exam. So did he actually talk to anyone face to face? Or, you know, we were so critical of students. Like, well, did you talk to your roommate or did you just text message them?

SPEAKER_01 11:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

And we modeled the same kind of behavior. And I but again, I don't know. Did he email them and then talk to them the next day in class?

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Or or vice versa. Yeah. I mean, I in my mind, I guess I thought maybe he had the discussion with the students that were in class and then followed up with an email and said, here's for those of you who weren't there, but more reporting needed.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

I'm thinking of like takeaways. Like, what can we learn from this for our own campuses? This feels like an opportunity to engage with every campus has a different version of like faculty support center, faculty development center, teaching and learning center, whatever it's actually the place I'm at now, they have two different places. But these are centers where faculty learn how to be good teachers.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

But having a relationship between the conduct office and the faculty development center is really important because I think there are lessons for everyone to learn in this. And they'll always say that the faculty that used their center are the ones that don't need it.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

Little preaching to the choir situation.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

I always thought that they were a bridge between like faculty and administration, that they understood both sides and in some ways were a mediating presence.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

I think one of my takeaways was around, how do I say this? I I remember a case when I was a conduct officer that sort of stress test our system. You know, we had an alphabet system for signing case numbers within a case. It went A to Z. And I had 30 students. So it was a stress test. Like what do we do when it when something goes outside of the norm? And in this case, in a mass cheating scandal, I don't think you it sounds like they're trying to apply the system that they would use for a day-to-day um incident reporting system. And it's not scalable in a reasonable way for the professor in this case. And then I worry about how are you going to meet with all those students? Like what does that look like? Um so I think that for me, a takeaway from this is when you encounter cases that stress test your system and you find that it does not work, how do you start to develop meaningful workarounds that so that the next time something like this happens, if it does happen, uh you're not once again trying to cram something into, you know, a round peg into a square hole?

SPEAKER_02 13:43

What I fear is either nothing that they'll say like, well, we could bring each individual student in and they'll each deny it. Yeah. And we don't have the capacity to do 80 hearings right now. Because this is just one class. We've got all these other classes also with their cheating cases.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

So is the is the lesson then, if enough of us do it, the college or university can't hold us accountable, like if we all do it?

SPEAKER_02 14:11

Or that you punish everybody because that that's the other thing is like, well, we'll just send a warning to everybody, or what we're just gonna put everybody on probation. And I think that there are creative ways. Now I'm just thinking out loud, so this would all need to be critiqued, but for the students where there is pretty good evidence to say, here's what we're thinking, everyone's gonna get a warning in this category. If you accept the warning, and here are some resources trying to address what happened. But if you'd like to meet someone, we sure would like to meet with you and see how we can support everyone, support you, support the professor, and see who comes forward.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

I like that. I it does make me think when we did the Just Deserts and dissertations. I think Dr. Aaron Kaplan mentioned looking at two different cases where a student drank too much and went to the hospital. They both went to the hospital, but when you start delving into what led them to that behavior, there were different stories that emerged. So the other thing I think about with this is they probably all didn't decide to do this for the same reason. Um and if you don't meet with these students and understand their reason why they decided to use AI on this midterm exam, then you're gonna miss the whole point of it, which is understanding the student experience and figuring out how to offer the best support possible.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

And I hope a really strong student code wouldn't be mired in we talked uh at the um that discussion about sometimes the the ga goal of consistency is really strangling.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

That a great code will say we may sometimes have to use creative ways of resolving cases um depending on exceptional circumstances to give yourself that leeway. Like who might be in that class? You might have the roommate of someone that had been murdered. You might have a handful of international students that are still struggling with confidence in English. You might have somebody who's feeling desperate because they feel like this is the grade that might keep them out of med school. Somebody that's just used to cheating and has always gotten away with it and has forgotten their moral-centered. Every one of those, there would be there should be a different outcome customized.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

I feel like a common theme recently in our podcast has been around this struggle between balance and compliance and and flexibility. I because uh, you know, I don't know anything about Brown's conduct system, but when I read this approach, it very much to me spoke to like, well, we're gonna we're gonna tackle this the same way we tackle everything. And it's it's an exceptional situation. And I think exceptional situations call for exceptional solutions. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

And maybe you're never going to find out in this class exactly what happened, but could you do enough information gathering to help for the next time?

SPEAKER_00 17:24

Yes. Because there's always, I mean, there's always gonna be a first time. And what you do with that first time uh is gonna be very obviously it's gonna be very telling about how you you handle the second time. If you're gonna treat this as uh business as usual, or you're gonna say this is too much for a system to handle, then you're setting a precedent for how future students are gonna approach the situation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

This is gonna sound like plea bargaining. So again, I'm just throwing this out there as a starting point of an improv activity, but yes, and could you promise students nobody's getting suspended today? We just really need you to help tell the story of what happened so we understand it and we would welcome your partnership in that.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

I think that's a really insightful approach to dealing with something that is relatively unprecedented. If you don't understand what led to the problem and this is something that could potentially happen again, then the best thing in my mind that you can do is that deep dive. Um, talk to students, figure out what led to this, what would have been a meaningful deterrent in this situation. You know, I don't want to believe that we can't offer take-home exams anymore, or that we can't, we can't count homework, or we can't count on students to to do the right thing when we're not looking over their shoulders. It just feels a little parochial. Something's nagging at me about, you know, why are students in college to begin with? I think my assumption is always to learn a skill. But when situations like this happen, I'm like, are these, are some of these students just there for the credential that they graduate and they have this degree that is essentially a passport into the workplace. But if it doesn't have any knowledge tied to it, then what's the what's the point? I don't know if I feel like I'm rambling.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

I and everything you're reading right now about higher education is about return on investment.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Yes. Yeah. It's um it is sort of an existential question, I think, for higher education. If if the purpose is just a piece of paper and you get to the workplace and you can't do the work, then it starts to erode confidence in what higher education is.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

You remember, like we we used to design all our programming models around the mission, the institutional mission statement. Like we are all here for a purpose. It's the same purpose that the faculty have. We are supporting the same learning goals. But I went to a conference with a philosopher a couple years ago, and on the airplane, I was like, how do you talk about the institutional mission? And he just looked at me like Collette, I he's like, I'm ashamed to say I'm it's never even come up in a conversation.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

That's interesting because I I feel like I when I think about the work that we do, I'm always looking at the vision and not the mission. Because I think the mission is the the what and the vision is the why. It is that five and ten year outlook. Like, what do we want to be? And the mission is like the why we why we exist. Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

Maybe we just need noble goals is what I usually say.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Yeah. And you know, maybe it's just different, different things vibe with different people. Like I think that a lot of people are attracted to an institution. If the institution lives by its values, they're attracted to that because values say a lot about your workplace culture. I I think for me and my personality type, I think about the our college's vision uh as a community college is really about transforming our region and making sure that we are providing uh opportunities for economic prosperity for as many people as possible. That's what gets me to work every day. The mission may be what other people are attracted to, that this is here's what we do, here's how we do it.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

So economic prosperity, let's that can be a noble goal.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

And how do you get there? The mission, so the mission of Franklin or Marshall was to develop students of intellect, creativity, and character. Mm-hmm. And I do think those two things relate. Yeah. If you are intellectual and creative and dependable and honest and all the things that go along with integrity, you will go far. Of course, you know, that math doesn't work equally for everyone, but Let's just pretend. But if we only focus on the the financial part, all the learning stuff you were talking about just goes out the window. But if we only talk about the learning part, somebody that's working three jobs and trying to do homework and send money home to their families because they're depending on their work study money to buy groceries at home. Oh, don't you want to be a thinker and a critical analyzer? Like, no, I'm just trying to get through this thing.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

I I do think that some people think of it as a barrier to barrier to a career instead of a pathway to a career.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

And I think you and I have both worked with people who said it's just a piece of paper.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

Well, you know, we work with people with PhDs that I'm like, oh my God, that person does not understand our field, at least.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

Right. And they, yeah. Yeah. And it was a hoop to jump through. I think sometimes it it can be. It can be whatever you make of it. I, you know, I think I've gone into I went into my master's thinking that it was a a hoop to jump through. And it it broke my brain in good ways. It changed how I think about the world. It changed how I write. And I I think I I went in thinking I knew what my doctoral was about, like what the program was going to do for me, and again, you know, was surprised in a good way. It it it again changed how I approach the world. If a student is in a classroom and they're thinking that this is just something I have to do, or it's in between me and working, then we failed that student, I think, in a in a profound way. If they're not walking away from their degree feeling like they have been transformed, or they are in a better position to have a fulfilling career or to raise their family out of poverty, then yes, the all the criticisms about higher education then are accurate.

SPEAKER_02 24:02

I uh am scrolling through this article right now and see where they I need to get the final paragraph is as colleges and universities grapple with AI, cheating must be taken seriously, Serrano said. We cannot afford to have a society in which a significant fraction of our best young minds think cheating is okay. That leads to a declining society, to a failed society. We cannot choose to become idiots. There's a lot there.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

Well, I'd love to see an article in a few months called What Brown Learned and How They Changed or How How We All Did.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Yeah. Yeah, I'm struggling with that last paragraph. I'm trying to put my finger on why. I think it paints the situation with a broad brush. I think you can you can cheat episodically, and it's not a personality flaw or a lack of moral. Like I I think I'm going back to this was a unique moment in time at Brown that we've identified a symptom of something that happened, but we haven't really looked very closely at what was the student experience in this situation. Maybe they did all cheat, and maybe they are chronic cheaters. I doubt it. I, you know, I want to believe that this was just an exceptional moment in time and it was stressful for the students who were there, and that this is possibly a response to that, and that there may have been 50 different reasons that 50 different students chose that path for that midterm. It's interesting to me, though, that so many of them just drop the class. Again, I work at a community college. If that many students drop a class, uh, regardless of whether or not this cheating discussion is happening, it's gonna be a red flag. People are gonna say, what are we doing to support these students? How are we what kind of conversations are we having? I I want to know more about what happened behind the scenes in this.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

So my plea bargain idea, you don't even need to do that. You've got 30 students right now. That there is no, they they're not in danger right now.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

Because they dropped out.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Of the yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

Who knows some of those 30 students? And could they be diplomats in getting some intel about what was going on for them?

SPEAKER_01 26:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

In that class. I mean, you talk to students and they're like, oh yeah, just sit in class. I see all my peers cheating around me. Like, well, tell me more about that. Who's somebody I could talk to that might help me be a better administrator by understanding their story? Oh man, wouldn't it be fun if we got to do an investigation about that?

SPEAKER_00 26:48

It's interesting to me that uh also the general distribution of grades is between 65 and 80 percent. That is a that's a rough class.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

But if you know it's a rough class and that 65 is okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

I just want to get my 65 and know what I need to know.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

I feel like if I was a smart student and I was gonna cheat in that class, I would have aimed for a midterm score that would was in the range and not like something that was like everybody just decided, well, everybody else is probably gonna shoot for uh an average score. I'm gonna be I want something a little nicer than that, if I'm gonna cheat, you know.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

I have had students, uh there was somebody last semester she said that to me. She's like, listen, if I was gonna cheat, I would have gotten an A.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Also interesting to me. I am now rereading the beginning about the the name of the class, Welfare, Economics, and Social Choice Theory.

SPEAKER_02 27:53

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Yes. I feel like I want to know what majors are taking this class also. Because there are, I think they're well, yeah, I'm not even gonna go down that down that path.

SPEAKER_02 28:05

I'm trying to figure out who would to attribute this quote to.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

Yeah, what are the students learning in this situation? I I think partly it's gonna be Brown's response. I think if the response is that we're not going to address it in a meaningful way, that it is if enough of us cheat, we can all get away with it. But also is the appropriate response in a situation where you're faced with a consequence to just drop the class and pretend like it didn't happen. Those students potentially still cheated on an exam. And even if you drop the class, it doesn't mean that the academic dishonesty went away. It just means that you dropped the class and you avoided it. So what did you learn in that situation? That when something when somebody holds you accountable, that you quit your job so you don't have to be responsible or that you walk away from a problem instead of dealing with the consequences of it.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

I bet you'd get 30 different answers. There was a consequence, I suppose, in you don't get that tuition money back for that class that you dropped. Maybe there was a lesson.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Let me ask you this in at your school, if a student was if a student was reported for cheating on a midterm exam and they were reported to a conduct officer and they dropped the class before the meeting, does that absolve them of having to have a discussion with you? Like is the discussion now moot because they dropped the class?

SPEAKER_02 29:47

I'll just say I've worked at schools that had that built in that you could not drop the class.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

Before it had been resolved. And then I worked at a place with the, I think the registrar owned the policy, but uh they had a policy that you couldn't drop it, period. But after some cases, we'd meet with the student and the professor's like, that student should have dropped the class weeks ago. And I encouraged them to, and they just kept plugging away. They thought they could dig themselves out of the hole. And now here we have this minor cheating case. And so we we made it so that there could be an exception, like the dean of students' permission, they could drop the course after the hearing took place. And I would only do that with the professor's blessing, but I've also worked at places that didn't even address it. So I I remember a student that they received an F in the course as a result of their cheating, and then they just dropped the class and that F disappeared.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

That's interesting. I thought there was a I feel like there's a period of time after which like you can withdraw, but the grade stands. But maybe I'm I'm so far removed from that world at this point.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

Every school is its own school with grades. Well, I'd love to revisit this in a few months and just see. I thought about like, should we invite Professor Serrano on our show?

SPEAKER_01 31:16

Oh my.

SPEAKER_02 31:17

I think it's a little too soon, probably, but I'd love to in a few months hear some reflections about it.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

I'd love to hear from the Brown um Office of Student Conduct, too. I think that would be fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Or maybe some we could invite the students on. We could have one of those Donahue moments where they we blur out their faces.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

That would be fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

That would. Well, okay, wheels are turning. Kirk, thanks for bringing this as a topic. It's so sad that we've done two special episodes now, both related to Brown, and they're they're just they're dealing with all the same things that the rest of the country is, but in such a profound and under a microscope kind of way.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

It does feel that way.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

Yeah. I I feel for everybody involved in this case. All right.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

Wanna close down? We thank everybody for tuning in for this, and we would love ideas or what your response was to what happened at Brown. You can send us a voicemail um through the link in the show notes or um send us a Gmail at Ms. Behaviorcollege at gmail.com and we'd love to just get some more creative insights on this.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

And if you uh send us a voicemail or an email, we might play it on the air or read it. So, you know, be fancy.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

Uh-huh. We'd love to give you a spotlight. Thanks everybody, and we will see you next time on Ms. Behavior. Ms. Behavior is written and produced by Colette Shaw and Kurt Doan. Theme music was written and performed by Kevin McLeod from NCompotech.com. You can contact Ms. Behavior at Ms. Behavior College at gmail.com. That's MS Behavior College at gmail.com.