You Be the Judge: The Case of the Expelled Reddit Ranter

"Chris" was a college student. According to Chris's long post on Reddit, they were expelled from their institution and learned lots of lessons the hard way. Chris wrote their post to pass those lessons on to future accused students. This episode explores Chris's "Guide on Student Conduct," and their unfiltered perceptions of their campus's disciplinary processes. Kurt and Colette examine Chris's insights and assumptions, and consider how even factually inaccurate information might be important for administrators to carefully consider in order to improve transparency, learning and long-term outcomes.

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Theme music "Fuzzball Parade" by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Ms. Behavior Podcast, the podcast for professionals in the field of college student conduct. My name is Colette.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

And I'm Kurt.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

And we are gonna have some fun today. We wanted to just remind everybody the date for our first Ms. Behavior Book Club, Just Desserts and Dissertations, is coming up soon. That's July 16th. It's a Thursday at 4 p.m. And it will be followed by the first ever Ms. Behappy Hour for folks who want to stick around, or we'll have a sign-up sheet for people who just want to come to the happy hour and hang out and not talk about work after the book club. You can register for both by clicking the link in our podcast information, or send us an email to Ms. BehaviorCollege at gmail.com and we'll get you all the information that you need. So what do you have on our plate today, Kurt?

SPEAKER_01 1:12

So I went down a rabbit hole on the Reddit uh recently, and I found the craziest Reddit. Well, the craziest student conduct Reddit. And uh I just I wanted to pull some pieces from it and get your perspective.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Super.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Okay, so the topic is on Reddit under advice, how to deal with student conduct, a guide I wish I had before I got expelled. Um so they start with uh some basic stuff, like what you do in a minor scenario, like it says warning or at worst disciplinary promotion. Um, and it's good advice. If you get caught in a minor violation, just fess up to it. Nothing's gonna happen to you. Come clean is their advice. Uh what to do in a what to do in a group. Let's see. So the group is basically you have some options. Lying is some of the advice. You can lie and say, you know, I was just in the room. It wasn't me. Uh, but then it goes into uh background for a severe scenario. So this seems to be the the situation that led this person to post uh punishments leading to a suspension at best and most likely expulsion. And it starts it by saying, So you did some really fuck shit and got caught by the cops. Then it leads into what's gonna happen. Uh first of all, they he says they're good the cops are gonna tell the school, they're gonna make sure that you know. And then the interesting thing for me, and I'm not a a Reddit native, but this person has in this long post, they have bolded certain things. And the first thing I see it says, they do not give a shit if you become homeless.

unknown 2:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

So they're gonna expel you. Uh, he said, I gave them a dramatic sob story, like, I'm living in the wilderness and I'm afraid a homeless dude is going to stab me. And the dude essentially told me to get fucked. Um so his workaround to being expelled is just have one of your friends let you into the dorm, but don't use your badge because, like, don't use your ID because they can track you, because you know, big pharma, then they know big brother knows where you are, but you can just have a friend let you in and you can crash at their place, uh, which I'm sure, you know, is great. Uh, but this is the part that I think you might enjoy that of what your reaction to. They'll schedule you for a meeting again with some conduct person where they're going to pretend to be your friend and try to understand the situation. Do not fall into this trap. Capital letters bold.

unknown 3:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

In the university's eyes, you are now public enemy number one. They have no interest in being your friend or giving you an educational sanction. What they want is an admission from you so that they can they so that you can't sue them for breach of contract when they decide to expel you. Do not make their job easier for them.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Okay. Wow. Where do you want to start unpacking that?

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Um, I this, I I think this classic trope of us against them. Um, and you know, part of me worries like, okay, some some student is gonna get into a fuck shit of trouble, and they're gonna come on the internet looking for fun and uh advice, and this is what they're gonna find. Uh-somebody who set up this immediately antagonistic relationship. And to be clear, I feel like uh this is a fuck around and find out situation. Like he said up front, he did something that got him arrested and ultimately got expelled. So this isn't like, oh, I I peed on a statue in the quad, or, you know, I put bang snaps on the top of the door and scared somebody. This sounds like something pretty egregious.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

So I I like to lead with the benefit of the doubt. So I am wondering, okay, let's say this is my school, are there lessons for us to learn from this? I can tell a student is coming in already with some misunderstandings. Could we be better about making sure they know this is a suspension slash expulsion level case? So that whole like trying to be their friend, and I, you know, this is a lesson I learned the hard way, because I'm pretty warm, is you can't act all warm in a suspension case and then surprise them with suspension. Did this person have an advisor working with them? And if so, did they at school have a trained advisor program where the advisor ahead of time could have said, like, I need to prepare you for the highest levels of outcome. And let's talk about what are you gonna do if they suspend you tomorrow?

SPEAKER_01 6:12

It sounds like this dude lawyered up too.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

You know what, Kurt? Someday I would love. I've got some commercials from YouTube of lawyers who give advice. Like, do you have you been written up at your college? Here are 10 steps plus call me and hire me because this is what I do. And it's terrible. I just I'd want to make sure. Did the college do everything they could to make sure he was getting some good advice and and support?

SPEAKER_01 6:37

I think not. And at least from what I'm seeing here. But again, I also that throughout this whole thing, the student doesn't say what they did. So I'm left to assume the worst because that's where my brain goes. Um so I do wonder like, like is this a scenario where there was no other option for for the student? Like it was it was always gonna be this, and no matter what information he shared, he wasn't getting off the hook. Yeah, which fair.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

Did he did I I keep saying he? Did he know?

SPEAKER_01 7:11

I was just gonna say the same thing, and I in reading this, I think I assumed, but I do feel like I got some nugget in here that it was a this was a he situation.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

I'm gonna say they just to or like that. We could call it Chris, you know, Chris um was did Chris say whether they went through the individual process or the group? Because as an individual, they said they would tell the truth.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Yeah, I think this was an individual situation. And as I'm reading it, I think another point of clarification, they said this is a student conduct process, which is a mockery of all known legal systems on this planet compared to those comparable to those of corrupt third world countries. And is a it's designed in a way for the student to lose. Uh so basically they talk about the fact that their university uses a preponderance of evidence, uh, which he says, uh who wait. Furthermore, it operates off of a preponderance of evidence standard, which means that this officer, in quotes, who most likely has no qualifications required to make this judgment, thinks there's a 51% chance you committed the offense they will deem you guilty. That's right. They'll expel you and ruin the rest of your life if they think that there's a better chance that you did it than you didn't. There's no boot, there is no burden of proof uh or higher evidence standard like the real justice system has. So to me, you know, a point of clarification for students is this isn't the justice system. It's not right a court of law.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

And actually our court system, the civil court system does use a preponderance of evidence. So like Judge Judy uses a preponderance of evidence, not beyond a reasonable doubt, like a murder case or a criminal case. So in in some ways, we actually do model that, but a a strong system will make it clear that it's not the court system and point out those differences. It's hard though, because their parents, their lawyer will treat it like it is, and we don't know which one for this school.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

I would like to see Judge Judy weigh in on this situation though. I think that would be interesting.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

I have a feeling their sob story. I I did you s say that they um they had said I gave this big sob story and then they didn't The sob story is important, but I would say for a case I'm doing, don't lead with the as evidence. It's that's a tough one.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

The sob story seems to not have anything to do with the behavior. It's the consequence. The sob story in this case is the consequence. You kicked me out of housing and I have no place to live. That's not talking about the behavior, it's talking about now I'm upset of my because of my consequence.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

I guess that's a question. I just found out that my parents are getting a divorce, and my dog died, and I went out and got wicked drunk, and I don't usually do that, and then I got arrested, and I took a swing at the cop and landed a punch, and I would never have done in a million years that was just that one night. So maybe maybe it is important to know that sob story, but there's other stuff that we don't know from Chris.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

But Chris doubles down.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Okay, what happens next?

SPEAKER_01 10:52

First advice deny all allegations, do not give them any information to go off of. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

That might work in Chris's favor. I'd like to I'd love the dossier of information. Is there a video? People get stuck a lot right now. And are there pictures? Is there proof? Well, Chris is saying they didn't do it. Right. So that might work in your favor to just shut up because all this like sob story might be making it worse if the hearing officer is thinking you don't get it. You punched somebody and now they had $10,000 worth of surgery to repair their face, or I don't know. I'm just yeah. Um, but if you don't get it that you hurt somebody, let's talk about that. You've given up the opportunity to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Yeah, and you know, for any uh student who has stumbled onto this podcast, instead of Chris's Reddit, what advice do you give them? They did something really what was it again? Fuck shit crazy.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Right. Does does your university have the equivalent of Chris's do this, don't do this? But does the college have its own version of this that is credible, that is caring, that is legitimate? It doesn't sound I'd like to know.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

It does feel like the conduct system lives so far outside of this particular student's experience that uh and I I think that's true for a lot of students that the first time they encounter a conduct situation is maybe the first time they realize that their college has a conduct office. But it doesn't have to be that way. I think, you know, if you're talking about this during orientation and maybe making it just part of the norm that it doesn't have to feel like it is this shadow system to the state's judicial system.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Depending on the campus culture, too. Some campuses are more prone to, well, what did you get? Oh yeah, last fall I got caught drinking and I just got a warning. Well, they kicked me out of school. Like those are not the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Which again, you know, it would be wonderful to have. I I am so curious as to what this student's specific situation was. Um the next part cracked me up too. The next piece of advice was it says a week or two later, the conduct person will make a decision and you'll receive it via email. If they still end up moving to expel you, you help you'll have two options appeal to a student conduct board or appealing to the dean. Now I'm curious, Caleb, which one would you do?

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Okay, what was the first part of that? Because I I got caught on that a little bit in my head.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

He says that um you're gonna get an email with the decision, and they're gonna give you two options. You can either appeal to student conduct board or appeal to a dean. Part one. Student conduct board.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Deliver that decision in person. Do you remember in Game of Thrones, the first season when when Edard Stark had to chop off the head of one of his deserters from his own group? And one of the sons is like, why does he have to do that? And he's like, if you make the decision, you need to wield the sword. And I have always felt, I said that in my interview to be a dean of students, that like you need to look a student in the eye and tell them what your decision is and answer every question they have and do your best to try to help them understand. Suspension level cases, let them be angry, let them be hurt. They're gonna cry, they're gonna scream, they might throw some things, but you be there. So okay. Like you know, don't wait and send them a letter two weeks later.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Yeah, I didn't even think about that. That is mind-boggling that you're gonna find out about a suspension via email.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

And so now they have to make a decision whether to appeal or not. And most students don't understand most places it's hard to appeal. So they they can go to the dean or they can go to the group.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Yep. Dean or student conduct board.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

And what's Chris's take on those two options?

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Uh Chris says, do not appeal to the student conduct board. Um some interesting reasons why. Okay. Uh a requirement to serve is having a clear disciplinary record. This means that this is not a jury of your peers, uh, aka people who would uh do fuck shit.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Uh-huh. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Normal juries choose from the entire population, excluding felons. That means you'll have people from all walks of life. Think about the type of individual who would willingly take the time to sign up to serve on this type of board. This is a jury of self-righteous kids who think their shit don't stink, who act like underage drinking or simply being in the presence of alcohol and having guests over for more than three days is already the greatest sin. The conduct person will show up, and this jury of kiss asses will always side with them because he's more experienced in judging a person and he's been doing it for more than five years.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

All right. I'm on Team Chris a little bit on this one. I I've just recently gotten peripherally involved in local government, and I went to their website to fill out the volunteer form, and you have to fill out a criminal background check. And you have to answer, like, have you ever been convicted of any crimes? And like, who are these people? Like, uh if somebody did their time, how long is they held against them where they're they can't even volunteer to to help? So, and you know, we we had a student, Joanna, come on our show in the fall to talk about how she had uh learned about the system by being in the system and then later applied to be an honor board member. So I do find the goody goodies, unless they're really well trained, uh can be kind of judgy. Not I mean it doesn't mean that they have to be, but if I had to roll the dice, I'm with Chris. I'd go with the dean.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

So what if what if you are the chief conduct officer at your school and you have inherited a board of judgy McJudrissons? Yeah, you you walk in and you're like, alcohol, I would never what what's your first conversation with that group when you come back, you know, you do your summer training. How are you having a discussion with them about that? Or are you?

SPEAKER_00 18:05

The PowerPoint I had for training, the very first slide was our icebreaker here on the podcast of uh tell about a time you had to be held accountable. And even on the board application, we added one year, tell us about a time you were held accountable for something. And uh we had a couple applicants leave it blank.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

And I had to write to them. I was like, I didn't ask if you'd ever like been written up or gone through a conduct process. We asked about a time you had to be held accountable. Like, did you have you never m hurt somebody's feelings or made a mistake? So anyway, we try to normalize that we all make mistakes and that is part of the training. So I and we did have some goody goodies. I actually want to have them on the show. Like, how do you go from judging what'd you call them judging like judgerson? How how did you uh really fuel that empathy in you to make it safe for students to tell their stories? Not like that. Well, not just tell their stories, but because Chris is saying they're pretty mad because they had consequences.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Yeah. I'm trying to see if there's anything else. There is a whole section on key weaknesses of this university system that you can exploit. Um they don't have subpoena powers, meaning they can't get any official police report or assistance from the cops. Uh, if you get a lawyer, which you should absolutely do, and he presents you in a good light. Um wait.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Can we do these one at a time?

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

I'm learning my my short-term memory is just a mess.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

So that might be true. Uh some police departments are super open with information, but I would not assume that they wouldn't cooperate back and forth.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Yeah, I wouldn't either. And I would think that there are limits to that as well. Like if you were a threat to the safety of the community.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

And this sounded like from the name of the institution, it might be a public institution. Sometimes they have their own police station that is they are the police. So depending on whether you have a public safety or a police presence, um, they might be the one feeding the reports to the conduct office.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Mm-hmm. Now, Chris does say that if you know that the police report or you if you have a lawyer, you can get the lawyer to get the police report and look at it. And if it paints you in a good light, then you could introduce it as evidence. But if it doesn't paint you in a good light, you can not.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

I'm on team Chris here too. An expulsion level, suspension level case, you should be able to reasonably ask your conduct officer, can I see the report ahead of time so I can prepare? And some offices don't have the people power to redact reports and get them ready, but they should at least invite you in. Like, yep, you can come in, you can take notes, you can read the report, but we just can't hand you the report. If if they denied Chris the opportunity to see the evidence ahead of time for that high a level case, that is sketchy.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Okay. I can see that. Uh the third weakness is that the campus cameras have no audio and the quality is very grainy. So if they're threatening you with footage, it's more reason for relief than fear. Uh, they may be trying to scare you into revealing more details that they don't have. So that's a little uh yeah. Uh and then the next section is mistakes I made. Also interesting. Um none of them none of the mistakes that Chris made were actually doing the thing that he or she did.

unknown 22:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

It was mistakes in within the system of uh the judicial slash conduct process. Um first mistake. Believe that the school is educational with their sanctions, and believe that the conduct officer is on your side.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

Okay. That I'd have that same I prove it to me.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

We don't know. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Yeah. And I I think depending, as we said before, on the flavor of what this was, uh you might have a different experience in somebody who uh stayed out past a curfew or had somebody stay in their room for more than three consecutive days or whatever small policy you have.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

Chris is asking questions too about credentials. Like somebody who has five years of experience, that's not a lot. And depending on what Chris did, was that on the news? Was that in the newspaper? Are there people calling the president's office for fear of their student safety? And you don't know what pressure is on a young professional, maybe to issue a certain outcome.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Especially if you show up with a lawyer to a hearing. I I think about myself as a, you know, the first 10 years of my career. If a lawyer had shown up to a meeting, I would have been like, this is outside of my league 100%.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

Yeah, and the campuses that say like, no lawyers. I will I think we talked about this on our very first episode. Like, I really think you should allow a lawyer to at least be present, even if they have to shut up. Because Chris has criminal charges pending that could be impacted by what happens at the table.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Yeah. Um the second mistake have the student conduct review board be my jury, thinking they would be sympathetic.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Oh, so Chris opted for the group.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Did uh he he or she, Chris felt like they were there to feel superior. Um and that they would side with the school 99% 99.9% of the time.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

That might be true.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

We don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

But they might also have a more sympathetic sanction. Who knows? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

I do find people with student boards sometimes like to brag like those students are way stricter than we are. Ha ha ha. Like, oh, I don't know. It's because developmentally they're dualistic instead of thinking more critically. And that's not a great thing, usually.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Sounds like uh some learning opportunities. Uh the the third mistake was just um basically not being rich. Uh basically said that the the corruption of the school was a hundred percent to blame for why things are like they are, that if you uh if you have enough money, you can get out of anything, which I don't disagree with. I think we see evidence of that everywhere. Yeah. Uh the TLDR at the bottom says, never trust the um university in question.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Uh sorry, what is TLDR?

SPEAKER_01 25:36

Oh, too long didn't read. Oh it is long. And I didn't even get like I started reading some of the comments, and I did not even I'm sure there's some golden here. I think a lot of them are specific to the institution in question. But there were other people who said, yeah, I had a similar experience at my school, and sometimes they named the school. Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Chris has dug in deep. And unfortunately, I they raise a lot of good questions. And Chris might be right about most of the concerns, but still have done something heinous that there's no question that would have been a a removal.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Colette, do you think we could get Chris on the show?

SPEAKER_00 26:26

That would be fascinating. Can't hurt to reach out.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

I would you like would you want to do that? That would be interesting. And I I also I wonder if you, if I send you this link, I wonder if you would post something, just say, hey, student conduct officer here.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Here's my two cents on some of this.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

I I would like to do that before we post our episode, or we do like a before and after.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Okay. It might be interesting. I this is from three years ago, so I don't know that this is attracting any uh try to see if there's any recent comments on this.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

It would be interesting to talk to that university too. I used to love Reddit at the Rochester Institute of Technology. There was an active subreddit for the university. And we never had to go on there. So whenever something conduct-related came up, it might sound similar to this. Like, can you believe they did this to me because I did that? And the community would say, Yo, you knucklehead, what were you thinking when you did that? Like, that's not cool. This sounds fair to me. And there it was always so self-correcting, not just about conduct, but all kinds of issues. And it felt like things were very transparent because of that. I'm game. They've had three years to reflect on it now.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Yeah. There is one funny uh response from our grad student. It says, I see a lot of things highlighting the difference, the differences between the university system and a criminal investigation adjudication, as if this is proof that the system is broken. The truth is that the university is an administrative civil process and not really a trial per se. You're comparing apples and lettuce. Sure, they're both green things that you eat, but about the only similarities. Same between criminal justice and a college university. That's it. I did get a laugh out of the story. First, you advocate for lying through the process and then become indignant that an appeals board would assume that you would that you would lie. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Yeah. I would love for listeners to uh weigh in on this.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

I'm team not enough context here because I I think context is so key in this. And you know, if this if this dude got in a bar fight and was wrecking a place, or woman, whoever this person is, right, then that's it's a whole different story than if they I don't know what the other thing is, you know, public intoxication. You know, if you if you're just under the influence and walking around and not harming anybody.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

And this is an expulsion. This was not just a timeout, this was a you are never welcome back here again decision.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

In my mind, that's that's something huge. And I would assume, knowing the conduct officers that I know, that they are thinking, okay, this is somebody that could pose a risk to themselves or other people in the community. And I'm worried about how that might be. I'm sure there are schools that are like, oh, this person's a liability risk, and uh we need to make sure that we Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

That's somebody's job too, to be fair.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

It is. To assess that like acute or like the immediate is there an immediate risk that they're gonna keep doing this? It's funny. As I listen to this, I would think that I would hear it through a conduct officer's lens, but I really hear it through the lens of if I were Chris's support person. What could have been done before the hearing to have given Chris a better shot at learning, being able to come back? Maybe not getting kicked out at all. I don't know if it was possible, but I always want to dream. This is gonna be one of my favorite episodes.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Could we share the link on the podcast and see if anybody else wants to like I'd love to hear what other people think of this as well. Uh, because it is it is long and there's a lot to unpack with it. Uh, I think I only touched on probably like 20% of it because uh, you know, for the sake of time.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

And things like this, people go to Reddit, they're looking for advice. I get a lot of good information on Reddit myself for queries. Uh, who's going to read this and believe it?

SPEAKER_02 31:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

At a school where maybe there is a little bit more titership or a more humane process. But that's also not fair to the university. They they may have had everything in place and Chris just didn't avail themselves.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

And the other thing I know about higher education is that if even if this was a case of a school not doing everything they should have, all that can change on a dime with, you know, one employee turning over. It can change an entire department. I and I also go to I go to Reddit and the internet, but the other thing I do is, you know, I'm not going to buy anything if it has one five-star review. Uh you know, I need to see. But that is me as a 50-something person. You know, I think, you know, my daughter can look at a a movie and say, oh, it's got, you know, it's got seven out of ten. Okay, well, two people rated it. Uh that means nothing to me.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

So there is that population of people that nature nurture, whatever, like maybe they were treated horribly in a high school discipline setting, and they're already distrustful of authorities. We've talked about that. We had, oh, it was funny when we talked to Dr. Norcross last week, and uh, he said his his dad had been a school teacher for him. Yeah. But those things for you and me affect how we see authority too. And there's there's a whole population that could read this from Chris, like, oh yeah, do not trust the man. Yep. But it's not helping anybody.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

And intersecting I identities as well. So, you know, how race and ethnicity can play into this, how your prior experiences with police can play into this, um, the judicial system. Yeah. So, you know, I'm reading it at face value at first, but you know, if I think about it differently and try to put a couple different lenses over it, it it does read a little differently.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

Mm-hmm. Thanks for bringing this. I think we should do this more often.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

I this was fun. I uh I'll see if I can find another one.

unknown 33:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

In the meantime, everybody, we hope you'll sign up for book club and start thinking about what your just dessert is.

SPEAKER_02 33:57

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

All right. See you next time, Kurt.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

See ya.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Ms. Behavior is written and produced by Colette Shaw and Kurt Doan. Theme music was written and performed by Kevin McLeod from Incompotech.com. You can contact Ms. Behavior at Ms. BehaviorCollege at gmail.com. That's MSBhavior College at gmail.com.