Ranaysia Burrell-Holley: A New Professional with Seasoned Confidence

Meet Ranaysia Burrell-Holley. Only one year out of grad school, her vast experience as a grad assistant set her up for all facets of student conduct. That experience led to a career change and a passion for helping students and student organizations move through conflict. Ranaysia has lessons to teach us about the intersection of kindness and strength. Discover how her human-centered approach strengthens relationships, reduces fear, and fosters a supportive campus culture.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Hello and welcome to the Ms. Behavior Podcast. My name is Colette.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

And I'm Kurt.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

We're your hosts, and we talk about college student conduct for other professionals who do this amazing fun and hard work. Kurt, we are officially in summer now.

SPEAKER_02 0:27

Yes, I am wearing short sleeves. That's how we know it's summer. How is your summer going so far?

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Summer is great. There's some magic right now. I feel like I'm having one of those times when I throw stuff out into the universe. I'm like, I'm gonna let the universe decide what the next thing for me is, and it's throwing a whole bunch of like really interesting stuff at me. So I might have some cool updates.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

I love it. And there's something else cool going on this summer, too.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Sure is. We got some reading to do, folks. Time to do our homework. Um, but it's fun homework because Ms. Behavior, you may have heard, is hosting its first book club, which is replacing books with our colleagues' dissertations so we can spread the scholarship throughout the field and offer free professional development from folks. If you have a sweet tooth, we're calling it just desserts and dissertations. And our first one is Thursday, July 16th at 4 p.m. Kurt, you're a dissertation editor, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:35

I do. That is one of my uh little side hustles. I secretly enjoy correcting people's grammar for fun and money. Uh, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

I've been eager to ask what the editing entails nowadays.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Oh, you know what? It I I think about our conversation about AI. I think this is probably a job that will uh maybe not be around in 10 or 15 years, but I do think it requires a human still. So but I am excited because our first guest for that is going to be that firecracker, Aaron Kaplan. Yay, Aaron! Dr. Aaron Kaplan.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

I just saw videos from her hooding ceremony at graduation, which was super cool. And now we're gonna show her off to the rest of the world with her dissertation about belonging. So, gang, if you are interested, we hope that you'll go to the link in our description, the podcast description, and go ahead and register. Pick your favorite treat, get your favorite beverage in mind, and um, we'll get you signed up. If you are listening and don't have that link right in front of you, just email us at Ms. BehaviorCollege at gmail.com and we'll get you all signed up and get you a copy of the thesis.

SPEAKER_02 2:57

And once you uh sign up, ask a friend to sign up too. The more the merrier.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Yeah, please forward that. That is everybody's homework for the next couple months. We have until July 16th, so everyone has plenty of time to read and get ready. And we'll have Erin there herself, or let's call her Dr. Kaplan will be there herself. Well, today we're pretty excited to circle back with one of our favorite people that we got to talk to at the National ASCA Conduct Conference this year, Renasia Burrell. Welcome. Rhenesia, let's find out a little bit about you. You're my neighbor here in Pennsylvania. Can you tell us a little about your origin story? And then we've got a little icebreaker for you.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Yeah, so for one, thanks for having me again. Always great to be back. So my name is Renajia Borrell Holly, pronounce she, her, hers. I currently serve as a student conduct coordinator for student organizational misconduct, off-campus conduct, and residential misconduct at Rutgers University, New Brunswick. That's located in New Jersey, Central Jersey, to put that out there. Also, I am a recent graduate from the College Student Affairs program at Rutgers University, New Brunswick as well. And so that's a little bit about me so far. I'm pretty sure it's gonna be some questions where you get to know a little bit more about me.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

I didn't realize, were you working on your master's still when I met you last summer? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

You're amazing.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

Busy.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Yes, very busy. But it's all it's all coming to fruition for me. Everything's aligning up great. So I'm blessed.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

A life without homework.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

And now that you're done reading, you can just read dissertations for fun with us.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Yeah, because eventually I feel like that's gonna be my next step. So I'm always happy to get ahead.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Well, Rhanasia, one thing that we asked all of our guests, and I know that you listen to the podcast, so you may already be prepared for this. Uh, could you tell us about yourself in college and more specifically, did you ever get in trouble in college and what did that look like?

SPEAKER_00 5:09

No, so I feel like um Rhanesian undergrad. Unfortunately, I did go to school during the pandemic. It was like I joined my first year, and unfortunately, I transferred to Kane, my undergrad um institution, and I think I was only there for maybe like two weeks, and then we never went back again um until like for like two years. And then by the time I came back, I was student teaching because I have my undergraduate degree in P to 12 health and physical education. So it was just clinicals and more clinicals, but even then with the you know, the restrictions, it the college atmosphere wasn't the same. But I have not been in trouble, but I did have to submit a report to our Office of Student Conduct. And looking back, I'm like, yeah, that report really didn't make I understand what younger Renage was trying to do, but like looking at the policies, I'm like, yeah, that doesn't necessarily align for it to go through the conduct process. I feel like that could have just been more of a conversation. And so looking back, I hope that's what happened, right? Because that's what I would do now as a professional in that field. But yes, I did submit a report, but I was never in trouble.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Can you tell us about it or is it is it top secret?

SPEAKER_00 6:22

No, no. Um, so it was a part of um one of the initiatives that I was working on. I felt like one of the individuals that I was working with wasn't getting treated fairly amongst from like another student. And so I knew that that student didn't have, let's say, the confidence to stand up for herself. And so for me, it's like, okay, I don't want to interject, but I also want to make sure that it does get addressed on paper because she was getting like nasty texts and certain things like that. And I'm like, that's not right because I know that that person that's doing that to her would never do that to me. Right. And the person that would speak up and is confrontational when things are not right. So I was like, okay, maybe our conduct office at that time could do something. And I submitted the report, and I really don't know the follow-up of what happened with that. But I do know that eventually she felt fine. Her whole overall demeanor was a lot better. So I'm not sure if it went through the process or like an informal process occurred, but that was kind of my little touch point or interaction briefly with conduct and undergrad.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

So you were just advocating before you were even doing it in a professional setting, it sounds like.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Yeah.

unknown 7:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:33

Advocating for fun.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Yes, advocating. Oh, I like that. We gotta put that on the shirt. Advocating for fun.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

I like that. That sounded like one of those cases that some conduct officers would say, like, this isn't us, that's not a violation. And others would be like, Oh, what a great opportunity for restorative practices. I hope they did the second one for your colleague.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Hi. I hope so too.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

I was gonna say, or even just to check in on the student and make sure they were okay, the the victim in the situation.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Yeah, because like for in my role now, and I know we'll probably get into this a little bit more, it's like the priority, right? Making sure that we are touching base with the victim or the complaint, especially if there's like any harm to making sure that even if it might not rise to a policy violation, things are still being discussed and conversations are still being had. So nothing is just it felt it's felt like it's just swept under the rug, you know?

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Yeah. Were you a student honor board member, or do did you do anything peripheral to student conduct, or what magic wand kind of like touched you and got you into our field?

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Yeah. So during my um my master's program with the College Student Affairs program, so my assistantship for two years was with the Office of Student Conduct. So I was a grad intern for two years, and then I'm now working there professionally. So during my two years, I actually served as a hearing board member. I was used for everything. It's like you're adjudicating cases, okay? If they're going to the university hearing for students who are experiencing sanctions, such as expulsion, um, disciplinary excess, removal from housing, suspension. You're gonna hear it. Um, and that was also an experience. So that was my real touch point with conduct. And how I kind of transitioned into this field was mainly through adjudicating cases and actually having those developmental conversations with students and leaving the meetings feeling like, oh man, at first I'm super scared to have this conversation. But now it's like, wait, this was actually a great conversation. Like the student understands, okay, where the policy violation comes into place, understands our process, but it also understands the role that they played in the alleged incident, if any, right? Because there are some students that are found not responsible. But it's just that conversation of how any event they were found responsible, how could this impact them now? And then even post-reckers, and this is an educational process. And so, really having those like consistent meetings with students, I'm like, wow, this is great. Why don't people why don't people want to work here anyway? Granted, there are some intense cases, but it is like when you feel like, well, this was a really great conversation, and like I would really love to still connect with you after this, you know? Yeah, and so that's what kept me here, and that's what's still keeping me here, and now I feel like I just expanded my horizon by being with us or by um oh finishing your degree, finishing my degree, going to um Colette where I first met you, gearing um in 2025, learning more about student organizational misconduct, hazing. So, in terms of the areas of where I'm adjudicating conduct, because certain areas I feel like populations of students that you see, so any off-campus student org, right? So that's where we see students who are mainly online, anything that happens off-campus, even if they're in a different country, right? For that time being, studying abroad, also students who are affiliated either with a fraternity or sorority, but then also in sports, our athletics, right? Academic integrity. We also have students going through that process where it's just purely talking about academics and what that role looks like. And then even our residential students. And some are even like, you know, from different countries or even from different states. Um, they're not just New Jersey natives, so it's it's just really expansive, just like overall the experience, populations, education. It all plays a role in why I want to stay here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

How big, how big is the university?

SPEAKER_00 11:49

Yeah, so Rutgers is quite large. Um, speaking for our um flagship, because that's where I am currently located, um, I would say about 30, 30,000 plus. And that's going up. I feel like each year we're always increasing enrollment numbers, just going up, up, up, up. Um, I believe in our residence halls, I want to say it's about 10,000 plus going up. Man, we serve a lot of students.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

I think everybody should have a big school experience. As much as I have loved working at liberal arts colleges, I learned so much at a big school because it is the size of a city. Yes. And if something can happen in a city, it's gonna happen on your campus. And you you become unshockable because you you just see so many things that need creative stuff, approaches.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

It has been so many years since I was a hall director at a big school, but I will still periodically have nightmares about being on call and and hearing a pager go off uh back in the day of pagers, and knowing that it was probably a a burst pipe on the top floor of a residence hall or or something horrible had happened. So yeah, I I agree. I think it's a trial by fire experience.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Reneja, uh anyone who would ever meet you would like if if they didn't talk about your warmth, uh I would be suspicious of them. But tell me how you have cultivated your style of student conduct that keeps authentically you, but also asserts the authority that is entrusted to you by Rutgers.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Yeah, that's a really great question. I feel like that should be like a job interview question. Um, so for me, I feel like I always lead by reminding uh myself and others who are interested in conduct that these students, they're humans, right? Even regardless, I understand the policy violations or what allegedly happened. At the end of the day, they're humans. And also keeping in mind um the age range, right? There are some 17 to like 24, some are non-traditional students, right? That all plays a role in like the conversation and always remembering developmentally, where are they? Right. So, like to us, right, it could make common sense where it's like, you know, this doesn't really make sense as to why you did this, but leaning into the purpose of why and remaining unbiased throughout the whole process and being very upfront with them about being unbiased during the incident, because if students already have like a perception that you're already thinking I did it, they're gonna they're gonna have a wall-up, they're not really gonna be inclined to talk to you, they're just gonna be stone cold. Um, but what I realize is just actually reminding them why we're here to have this conference. What is my role here? What is your role? And I really genuinely want to know what happened from your perspective. And I explained to them that in the event, if they didn't show up, how I would have to go based off of the incident report because now I have nothing to weigh into my decision making. But since you are here, let's talk about it, right? Let's get into the nitty-gritty. And I think it's starting with making them feel comfortable and making sure explaining the whole process, right? From start to finish, oh, always asking questions. I feel like lately students are like, can we just get through this? And I'm like, wait, let's slow down. Like, let's slow down, like let's go through this. Do you have any questions? And I think they're always so used to people like rushing them and just getting, you know, what are we here for to talk about instead of taking their time and actually making sure that all their questions are answered, they are feeling comfortable. And it's like, all right, now I want to have a conversation with you. And also it's starting from like not even like in the questioning for students when I have my conferences with students. I'm not gonna directly ask them what I want to ask them. I'm gonna ask about what was going on that night. You know, take me from the top. Because sometimes they need that opportunity just to share everything out, and then it's like, okay, now we're gonna transition it to like the actual incident. Because I feel like you have to build up that rapport. So I'm still doing my job, right? Still making sure due process is being followed, but then I'm also building a relationship with them to the point where they feel comfortable enough to talk to me because I feel like it's pointless to have these meetings when they're like, No, they're like nope, you already know what happened. I'm like, I genuinely don't. I genuinely want to know what happened from your perspective. Um, so just keeping those things in mind, and then also students like break down and cry. I feel like, you know, that's where I'm like, okay, let's just pause, like take your time, let's take five minutes and let's come back. Right. And I think it's reminding them and like reinforcing that empathy. Because sometimes I feel like in the process they get a letter, they get charges, it's already like overwhelming, and then they're just like eagerly waiting. Yeah, it's scary, and they're waiting to like talk to you, and then they start talking about it, and also it could be traumatizing. So I think keeping that in mind while I'm like, okay, I want to learn more about you. How can we address this accountability? And making sure that they also understand where that accountability is coming from. And I also ask them, so what do you think would happen post-Ruckers if this happened again? Like if you were in this instance, what would you do? What would you do differently? Yeah. Um and just making them think and reflect. So, like, if they can leave there with at least one thing of like reflection that works for me. And then for my students who really aren't into the reflecting during that time, I do make sure to include it in the outcome letter where it's like certain words to prompt that reflection, or if any like educational sanctions associated with it to get them to reflect and it makes sure it aligns with what the policy violation is, so it makes sense to them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

And you can tell when a student maybe they're just starting to let themselves reflect on it, and they just need that little extra.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

Yeah. And so I realize, I'm like, wait, if you do this as an educational sanction, it'll tell you exactly right, like why this is wrong. And also now the questions associated with that active sanction, now it's prompting you to think. And so I'm not sure if my students know this, but I actually read their reflective papers. I find I find it actually quite interesting. Um, one of my students was talking about they mentioned like their love for Pokemon and like how like they eventually, I guess, like wanted to go into that career and like if they repeated this behavior, they wouldn't be able to do that. But it was so entertaining to me. I'm like, wow, like this is actually really nice. So so I read them and also like if needed, like I'll ask follow-up questions because I want them to know that I'm reading it and it's not like just gonna go into their case file and like I never see it again.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

That's such a fun detail, like Pokemon, like that, and what a great thing you could follow up with them about that's totally like no risk.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

It was so funny. I was just reading it in my office and I started laughing. I'm like, this is so cute.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

Like, what is your favorite uh Pokemon, please tell me?

SPEAKER_00 19:25

And I'm just like, wow, like this student really just uh went through and was actually so reflective to the point where I'm like, now I have like more questions about your Pokemon. But like, don't come back through the conduct process for me to find out. But if I ever do encounter them again, sometimes in like different capacities, I will. It's always nice to be like, I have more follow-up questions.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

I'm I'm jealous of one thing you do that I'm still working on is when in that moment, I last week's guest is an improv guy, and he asked me about milestones. Like, like what are the mile markers in a meeting? And like the first one is can you get a student's shoulders to come down? Because then it's like they're ready to talk. But sometimes I just can't, and it's it's rare because I try to blast them with my warmth, also. But when they're like, Can we just get on with it? Sometimes I get caught up in there and I need to like learn your lesson. Like, no, actually slow down even more.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

And yeah, and I feel like that was hard to implement at first because I'm like, okay, this is new, right? But then also, um, I think it was from Gehring, and I forgot what day it was, but when we were talking about like the hazing investigations, right? And when we're meeting with students, and sometimes it is just sitting in that silence, right? Or letting them know like the pace on how we're gonna move because they're already thinking ahead about what we should be doing, right? Or like how this is gonna go. Um, and so taking that and applying it to practice, I'm like, no, we're actually gonna take it slow. I'm like, this is why I block out an hour for administrative conferences, so we have time. I'm not gonna rush you, you're not gonna rush me, and we can make this a mutual thing. But then in the event that there I do have students who are just like they're they're just like this the whole time and don't want to relax, um, I just make sure to constantly check in with them. Like, do you have any questions? Or I just even ask them how does how does this make you feel? Right. And sometimes they're like, Yeah, I feel like this, because sometimes I feel like they come in with misconceptions about how I I'm gonna be, how the process is, and that's what keep those shoulders like up there like this. But then when I start to answer them, they're like, Oh, so this is what you do. And I'm like, Yeah. Or they might have had a negative experience before with another office, and then they already automatically assume that's gonna be me. And I'm like, hold on, let me play my role, let me say in your role. Who are you?

SPEAKER_01 22:02

We're both humans. Yeah. Yep. Both adults just talking about something that happened.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

Reneja, I'm curious. I I think most of us in higher education have, you know, that one moment that sticks out for us when you felt like I found my calling. What was that? What was that for you?

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Yes. Oh, wow. Okay. I feel like it had to be one of my I think was it my second year of the grad program? It had to be my first. I can't remember exactly what year. Um, but when I first totally entered this line of work, I'm like, I don't know if this is for me. Like, what did I get myself into? This is totally different. I'm used to being a student leader and I'm having these hard conversations. I had a case with the student um who actually ended up overdosing in the bathroom. Um but um she did seek um medical assistance by asking one of the other individuals in the bathroom to get the Narcan because we do keep them in the student centers. Um so she was able to receive the Narcan, and then our REPD came, um, Rutgers University Police Department officers, break it down. Um, they came, assisted the student. But reading the incident report for me was hard because I'm like, wow, like this is very real. But then also on the student's possession was um multiple bags of heroin, right? And so now it's like an extra level, okay, there's drugs, but it's medical admircy because she did call for herself. But having that conversation with the student and also reading back to her how the incident went according to the report, and then I think actually seeing her hear it because I think it's different, like living it, but then also somebody telling you how it went also is different. But then I feel like our conversation was so genuine while I am addressing like these policy violations in terms of safety, in terms of also like herself, safety in herself, and then also why we can't have these things on campus, and also just like the overall care for like we need to get you connected to our resources on campus or even off campus. While you're like, Yes, we're here to talk about this, but this is more of a priority for us, and just seeing her be so receptive to that information and that communication. I'm like, Yeah, yeah, this is what I want to do because I feel like there are ranges in conduct where I can either be like super small, super large in terms of like the incident, but having those kind of like in-between ones also matter, and also having those conversations where the student's like, yeah, you know, I appreciate this conversation. And it's like, yeah, I actually do need help. And this was a wake-up call for me. And being one of those people to kind of have that communication with her and have make her have that realization. Okay, I'm like, yeah, this is what I want to do. This is my line of work, this is what drives my why, right? Because I feel like I've always wanted to help people. That's why I started off, like wanted to get my certain teaching. Then I'm like, I really like working with on a college campus. Let me stay here. But then now, like in conduct, I get to help people experience their why or remember their own why, whether it's for continuing their four-year degree, their graduate degree, in some capacity, I made a difference. And in that moment, I'm like, okay, wow, I actually made a difference. Because sometimes I could feel like you do, and then you don't. And it's like, no, I know for sure I made a difference. And I'm like, that's what that's what's like, yeah, I'm staying in conduct.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

I love that you see yourself as as part of the journey and not a a detour from the journey. I think that's that's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Yeah, I'm actually glad that you bring that up because I I always tell people a lot, because like when people don't really know what I do, they're like, what do you actually do? And I'm like, I'm a conduct officer, and I have to explain to them my role. And so for I think outside looking in, people see us as like, oh, when they go to conduct, they went down the wrong path. And it's like, no, like we are on their path. Like, okay, students make mistakes, people make mistakes. We're all human, it is what it is, but it's like, okay, I'm here, and then it's just it's just a little squiggle, no line is straight. So it's like, all right, with that being said, go back on the path. We're here to bounce back, and so we don't come back here again. And in the event we do, hypothetically, because it does happen, what happened and what can we do to learn from it again? Right? Because like I said, life is unpredictable, so yeah, yeah. Put that on the shirt too.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

All right, you got me pondering now. We've had a few faculty members come on the show and almost completely they do not get what we do in our offices. And we invited them because they're like super student-centered, or they're doing scholarship that really applies to what we do to be for us to be better. But they use terms like like, but what about the bad students, or like just things where I'm like, oh gosh, they really have all the same misconceptions that the rest of the world does about what we do. But you were saying you do academic misconduct and all the other non-academic stuff too. I wondered if you had any sense of like how do we bridge that for our own colleagues that work like right next door to us.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Yeah, so um, so a part of my role, um, so now like I focus more on like the off-campus, you know, org misconduct and residential misconduct, but as a grad, I did everything. But now part of my full-time role is that I also serve as a Scarlet Honor Council advisor. So for our students on our university hearing board, I'm their advisor. Um, so I make sure that they're engaging in um community outreach, um, assisting with recruitment, making sure that they're always engaging in that consistent training, to making sure that our students are the best that they could be when serving on, whether it's a university hearing or a campus appeal, um to making sure that they're always putting the students first and understanding our policies and et cetera. So one thing that I'm looking to bridge that gap is by actually bringing back academic integrity presentations to do back into the community. So starting it off kind of small to see what type of response that we do get, but connecting with faculty and starting off, okay, for faculty who submit academic integrity reports, but they submit like 200. We plan on targeting them first. First, okay, we're gonna make sure that we wanna get into the classes that they're teaching and give presentations about academic integrity, but then also making sure that not only the students understand our process, but then also the faculty and what that looks like. So that way it's very transparent. And so my goal for them is hopefully by the end of the fall, we have a wide number of requests for academic integrity presentations that we can make sure that now it's an ongoing thing that our students engage in because they're also getting the benefits as well, such as presentation skills and also sharpening their knowledge about academic integrity and that process. Because sometimes they may not hear it as often as we have about 21 students. So, with that being said, then after that, I hope to start bridging the gap for other presentations. Maybe it's just an overview of conduct, and that's more of a general outreach to the faculty throughout the academic year that they can request to learn more about that and what our process entails, instead of it being like they only come and request a workshop when it's needed after a report has to get submitted, versus us being proactive now, so pushing for that that method of implementation. And I'm like, our students want to do it, so why not? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

Well, and then they they see you, they see your vibe, and hopefully that breaks down misconceptions students have about what the system is intended to do.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Because um, I feel like this past fall, I actually met one of my students in um in person. So, like at Ruckers, we meet with our students virtually, and so one of my students happened to come in, and I just happen to be one of the people out in the front desk area, and so I was meeting with her, and she was like, Oh, you're my conduct officer. And I'm like, Yeah. And she's like, Wow, I thought you were gonna be like really scary and like rude. And I'm like, and I'm like, no. She's like, Oh wow, like I wish you would have told me that at first, and I'm like, Well, what's the difference? I'm still gonna treat you like a human, like, regardless of like what my role is. I'm really nice. Yes, and I'm like, I'm I'm human, I'm I'm very people first, student first, student centered. So I'm like, also, why would I be rude? So she's like, I'm just really surprised. Okay, I'm looking forward to our meeting now, and I'm like, great, I'm glad that this reaffirmed you wanting to come to our meeting. You feel like your questions are answered, you actually got to meet with me, and I gave you that sense of I guess um comfortability to feel like okay, I know what it's gonna be, I already know who I'm meeting with. But I'm like, wow, like okay, I'm like, we're not scary people, we're actually a great a great bunch of people.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

And I'm guessing Rutgers has a um a website with that is wide open to the world with uh lists of potential educational sanctions that you could assign, tons of different reflection activities.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Yeah. So like we are very transparent.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

Yeah, I um I gotta imagine there is a certain ethos there. There's a care for students.

SPEAKER_03 31:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

I I've always wondered do you know the history who curated that website? And I I I don't even know what my question is, but like how did that come to be? Because so many schools go to your website um for ideas.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

Yeah, so um, so we actually have um our assistant director for training. Um, she also does academic integrity work as well. So her name is Janice Strickland. Um, she's been at Rucker's for over 30 years, and she is the main person uploading documents to our website. Um, she's responsible for putting together the sanction guide that's available on our website as well. Um, she's super creative, she's very uh creative with words. She all the onus has to go to her. Um, as far as I know, especially being here for 30 plus years. So she she is very central to her office, and she always continues to engage in updates. And I believe she also tends um the mini tracks as well when they're offered. So she's always learning new things and then also bringing that back to our office.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

The last two schools I've been at redid their websites, and there's this new philosophy nationally that you should only put things that are nice and shiny out in front of the world, and then anything that's not, you hide it behind password protection. And I hate that, I hate it. Uh, you know, I want parents to be able to find our conduct stuff and help their student and mentor or a student's lawyer. I wish, you know, they had easy access. So I hope that Janice and your whole team can just get keep keep that spirit of transparency alive.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

Yes, and that's super appreciated. And I'll make sure to relay that back to her um because that's also super helpful for us, especially once I became a grad in the office and I'm like, oh wait, I have all these questions, right? So it's like, okay, if I need questions answered and if I if I can get them through the website, great. Because then if I can't, how can I expect students to and then still come to meetings and be prepared or understand our process and what that looks like? So students basically get in their request letters to like meet with us or schedule a meeting. They basically get like a cute little like mini version of the important links that are on the website in their in their letter so it's super accessible to them. And if they want other details not listed in the letter, they can go on our website and our records, we're like, oh, just type in whatever you need and then put records at the end and it will pop up for you on the first the first go.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

Have you ever had a uh hearing go sideways or one that you wish you could be the one getting in the time machine to go back and redo?

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Uh that's a really good question. I feel like it had to be my first year. First year, you know, was always the learning year. Um, we went to a university hearing because a student was um in the process of being removed from housing. And the hearing only went, I felt like a little sideways because me and the faculty staff representative at that time just weren't on the same page. Because I'm like, if this student indicated that they threatened to harm another person in their sleep, I think that's grounds for violating our university code of student conduct. And the faculty staff's perspective was just, I understand what you're saying, but um, it came out of a different light, or it came out, it was only said as a reaction, right? And I'm like, so it was like me and her were going back and forth, and then I felt bad because like our other student hearing board member was just kind of waiting for like, okay, so what are we leading to do as a board? So ultimately, um, the faculty staff member, because I just feel like at the time I didn't have really good grounds, but I just kept on bringing it back to policy. But I'm like, you know what? We already been here or been in here for like an hour and 30 minutes. So I still feel like I have these same views, and you know, you're not really willing to hear me, so I'm willing to move forward, right? And so it ended up being like a 2-1. So it wasn't like a unanimous voting, and that's totally fine in what we could do. Um, but I still like feel like I had my own opinions, and the other student and the faculty staff member ended up being on the same page, and I'm like, okay. Um, so that was difficult. But then after that, I took that as a learning lesson to learn more about the policies, and then if needed, learn more about what constitutes removal from housing. Is this even a sanction that's warranted? And if so, at what levels? Because I was still new at the time, so I wasn't really sure of like, is this something like you know, she didn't like hurt her, she threatened to hurt her, but like, is that like a precedent? Is that something that like we normally take to a university hearing? And so as a first year grad, that was super interesting navigating that and also my relationships in the hearing board and building up that confidence to be confrontational, like I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

That's so rare. I mean, so rarely are those votes not unanimous that they had to have taken a lot of fortitude to yeah, and and so now as the advisor for like the hearing board, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:24

I'm like, I'm always putting, making sure for my students, you know, if you have any questions about the policy, make sure to ask the presiding officer or even go back to the website and ask questions. Um, and keep in mind that when you are in that deliberations room, you're all in the same playing field. So even if that faculty or staff member has been here for like 30 years, you're all all of your comments and decisions matter. And so I'm like, boost that confidence because I'm like, I wish I would have had that my first go-around, right? And it's different internally, but now externally, I'm like, go.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Speak up for the student, you bring that student perspective, right? Um, also ask questions, you know, be interactive with this process.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

Yeah, it's all about the question.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

Yeah. So I'm like, ask questions, and that's something that we also like train them on is like effective questioning, right? We want to ask more open-ended, not really like yes or no. We want to get those details and also like don't be scared to ask them because sometimes they are difficult questions. Um, and I acknowledge that. And also I open up a platform for my students, and I acknowledge if I heard that they were like in a harder hearing, and I'm like, hey, you know, I I heard that this hearing was a little difficult. If you have any questions, ask me. Um, and actually, as their advisor, I'm hosting my first ever Scarlet Honor Council retreat for them. So they also have like a just a day of training if there's been any updates during the summer, so to make sure that they're starting the year off on a great day.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

Day of training. Ah jealous.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

So stay tuned. It'll be my first one. So I'm hoping by next year it'll just be a consistent, a consistent thing. And I think that's something that the students are really looking forward to, and also building community because typically they really don't see each other until like our monthly meetings. And I'm like, you guys should meet in person. Let's start in August.

SPEAKER_02 39:25

We should have Renesia come back and unpack this for us. I I would love to hear how your first one goes.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

Oh, I would be happy to.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

Our board at my last college, we met every week, and it was such a great community. Um, but you're right. I'm I they met in the meetings once a week, but in hearings, they were always the only one. Because there'd be a student rep, a faculty rep, and myself, and um so they never got to see each other in action. It was all about that that esprit core that we created.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

That's really cool though. But I I like the idea of them meeting weekly or like having that opportunity. It's just that their schedules, you know, are all over the place and like they span from like a whole wide variety of like majors. So sometimes they're like, you know, I'm free at this time, and then other students aren't. And I'm like, it's okay, we will find it. And that's why I'm like, okay, August, everybody's coming back. Um, they're either moving back on campus, and just to keep that energy, right? Because I feel like if students see that my energy is low, how can I expect them to want to participate if I act like or look like I don't want to? So if I'm like, yeah, we're gonna do this, let's do this. And they're like, all right, we're with you. They're so cute.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

I can't let you go without asking about the org stuff because you're one of the campuses, again, jealous that has someone dedicated to organizational misconduct, and that is such a gift. That forgive me for asking such a broad question, but what are the big takeaways for you so far about how we manage conflict that relates to organizations?

SPEAKER_00 41:22

Yeah. Um, so one thing I also learned, another thing, not I learned many things from Garing, but they're like in like a list structure. Um one I think is being present with them. So um immediately after Garing, I reached out to staff from like our Office of Fraternity Sorority Affairs and asked them, okay, can I come to like your first meeting with the students? Now, granted, it was like represent um representatives from each of the organizations. Um, and I think it was like I went to I think only one I couldn't make, and I think that day I was sick. But either way, I actually I managed to go to I think three out of four of them on a Friday. And granted, they do meet at six, but it's like taking the time to actually go show face, explain who I am, and explain to them that I rather them see me now, right? And then their first time isn't seeing me if we receive any reports related to alleged hazing, possession of alcohol, like, but it's not like permitted. Maybe it's like juice or something along those lines. Um, and making sure that daily see me, right? And also giving them record swags, like when they see the ducks, we're conducts, right? So, more likely than not, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, more likely than not, it's a duck. And having them kind of build that connection. And so I realized going through that in the fall not only helped me build up my relationship with them, but it also gave me understanding into what the specific orgs were what they needed from conduct or what they needed to see in relation to like each group, because each group is different in terms of needs, um, and then also connecting more like with the staff, because I feel like the Office of Attorneys for the Affairs staff, they're so much more on the boots on the ground with them, super interactive versus conduct, it's like we only see for the misconduct. So going, being present is one. Also, I think being very transparent about the process and knowing the policies and like specifically what was alleged. And I think having that open communication. Because I realize that sometimes students they will send an email, but I think it's like, okay, in your email, if you can be a bit more descriptive or point out certain links to them and highlight specific things, they'll come to the meeting a lot more prepared. Um, and I think also another one is collaborating with headquarters. So if there's like any of like the headquarters nationals that you can collaborate with, making sure that you are also having conversations with them off to the side. So then that way when we go before the students, we are a united front and we are already on the same page. With most of the things and also I think just collaborating with sanctioning. So one of the organizations I adjudicated this past fall, so like, you know, we're gonna talk about sanctions related to like our policy guidelines, right? But they also came with their own sanctions that they worked out with headquarters. I'm like, oh, they're like, can we actually do this instead? I'm like, of course. This is this is great. I mean, like, we were we were gonna do something along those lines anyway, but because you already took one responsibility, but then also two, your headquarters and me are on the same page. That works. We can just talk more about logistics. This is great. Um, and having them take that ownership, right, when they want to, instead of being like, oh, you know, I don't really know. That doesn't really align, being very open and allowing them to feel also like they have some stake in the meeting as well.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

I think a challenging one sometimes is alumni and how they might insert themselves or not, like when we need them. But that can be a challenging dynamic.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Yes, alumni definitely play a big role. And hopefully now, like with my new supervisor, in the fall, if that does happen to be problematic again, we can come together and also talk about that a bit more and what that sort of relationships will look like. Um, but I think tentatively what we talked about is like in the event, maybe having like a set guideline for like alumni who want to be involved in the process, right? In terms of what they can and cannot do. And if they want to come with the students in person, what do those guidelines look like in terms of how they're interacting in a meeting, if how their relationship or um communication with the conduct officer who's conducting the investigation, what that looks like. But stay tuned for that. So, and that also might go on our org policy as well, but stay tuned.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

I recently had the opportunity to be a judge at a case study competition, a grad program was doing. Their case study was about organizational hazing. And every group got up and talked about the importance of hazing education, but my sense was that they thought that education was about teaching the definition of hazing. I really wanted them to understand how deep the roots of hazing can be and how complex it is. It's not just about teaching people this is hazing and this isn't hazing. I don't know if I've got a good question here or not.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

This is actually a great point. Um, so one of the so for Scarlet Honor Council, we were actually tabling, um, and we have like now this like new like spinny wheel, and like we've been asking them, asking students about like hazing, um, residence life policy guidelines, general university code of student conduct guidelines. But every time it came to like the hazing, I'm like asking them specifically, okay, is this hazing? Right, and giving them like an example of what could occur. So I think um, for example, is like if a student is engaging in a lineup and they're forced to do like push-ups or sit-ups or planks, right? Is that hazing? Um, most of the students said no. And then it prompted that conversation because then I asked, I told the students, I'm like, you should ask a follow-up as to why, right? And so when I collected the information from the Scarlet Honor Council, they're like, oh, because it's just exercise. Um, you know, hazing is like only like if something really bad happens. Um, hazing is only like if it's on the news, right? Something basically something that small shouldn't be considered hazing. And it goes to show that even though we only surveyed a little bit of like a smaller population who was at the resource fair that we were tabling at, it goes to show that generally our students on campus have this perception that hazing is meant to be something big, something explosive, something very dramatic, instead of something that can also be on a lower scale, where it it can be making them wear the same clothes, set clothes at night, making them carry around a pen, making them carry around a pen. They don't really consider those things hazing. So for me, I'm like, oh, of course they would never report that because they don't they don't know that that's hazing. And so for me, now it puts into the perspective, okay, maybe more outreach needs to go to the community about hazing. Um, because I know all the Office of Fraternity and Sorority Affairs is handling it through um with their fraternities and sororities that they oversee, but then maybe direct outreach to the actual community is needed. And even if it starts small with my my Scarlet Honor Council, just like tabling, especially during um anti-hazing week, whether it's a collaboration with the Office of Fraternity and Sorority Affairs, just reaching a general student population that come to Rutgers every day and might not know what that looks like. So ultimately, um I plan on having the Scarlet Honor Council table throughout the whole anti-hazing week, because now at Rutgers, we also have Real Response. So Real Response is a platform that is connected through Maxiant where students can report incidents in real time. So we're in the office of student conduct, at least for like in within my unit, we use it to collect information about hazing incidents that could be alleged. If there's any photos that can come in in real time, maybe they're at one of the houses on campus and they're in the basement. Maybe they stumble upon something that they see that makes them feel uncomfortable. It is anonymous reporting. So that way they can submit that report to us and we can individually give back to them in real time texting them and then also inquire about more information without students instead of students just submitting an anonymous report and we have no way to contact them. Um, and with that platform, most students probably don't know that we have it yet.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

Yeah, it's so powerful that you can be anonymous, but we can still reach out and ask for more information. Because how many times do you get anonymous reports that are a sliver of the information that you actually need to be able to do something?

SPEAKER_00 50:19

Yes, because follow-up is very crucial and also like the timing because the if it's something that happened more recently, it's like, okay, well, we need more information, quick and fast, do we need to alert headquarters? Who are the other stakeholders that need to be involved in this process? So, no, having that real response platform, right? We would hope that also the response in terms of like anonymous reports are a bit better and students feel more comfortable using it because now they know that their phone number is not being released, any identifying information is being released. So just making sure they know that that's an option and what that looks like, especially for hazing. And since our fraternity sorority houses are on campus, but even though they're considered off campus, if they involve any Rucker students, that also can come to us as well.

SPEAKER_01 51:07

I have to ask you about how you have been such a model of seeking out professional development and creative ways to fund your own professional development when folks' budgets are getting cut for travel. And so, yeah, share some of the the things you have done to make it accessible to you.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

Yeah, great question. Um, so when I started, well, it's almost been a year since I started my full-time role. So one of the first things was I was told that I should go to Gehring, right? To really get an understanding or deeper understanding of the sorority fraternity misconduct. Um, and so actually, one of the things that my director, Dr. Michelle Jefferson, encouraged me to do was to go to Gehring. So coming in new, I really didn't have a professional development budget. And so they're like, okay, so is there are there any scholarships that you can apply for? And so I applied for the the Gehring scholarships, and I was actually awarded the Dick Justice Scholarship. And so I was one of the inaugural scholar um scholarship recipients, so that was super exciting. So that really helped me a lot in terms of being able one to register and go. But then also with my institution, it showed that okay, hey, look, you don't have to pay for that much because I am a scholarship recipient. And then also it just it just sealed the deal a bit better. But then also coming back from that, a lot of the information and tools that I gathered from Gehring, I was also able to apply in real time. So now it's like I'm showing my professional development in real time. But then also at Ruckers, we are affiliated with ASCA, so the Association for Student Conduct Administration as an institutional membership. So I'm always on like webinars. Um, I'm also love me some good webinars, um, community of practices, but also I realize from those relationships there, I can also take those relationships I have offline and meet with people individually. So even though let's say for one year I can't go to the conference, right? I still connected with professionals who I can connect with and say, hey, this is something I'm experiencing or going through. What are some of the ways that you might be handling this or how would you handle it? So, any event, there's no money, that is okay. Connect with professionals from a wide variety of institutions and also don't be afraid to lean on them because I don't really don't foresee people just over saying no. Because we already know that this field is harder than sometimes it has to be sometimes, but we are very strong in community, and that's one thing that I feel like in other areas in student affairs, they can't say that. We have a good family, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:47

I'm like, I'm never leaving. Yeah. Rhanasia, thanks a bunch.

SPEAKER_00 53:53

This is really fun today. Yes, this was so much fun, and honestly, the questions were amazing. Somebody should be job interview questions.

SPEAKER_02 54:05

I think we just need to have Rhanasia on at the beginning of every episode. Uh just to to hype us up.

SPEAKER_01 54:12

A little boost. ASCA next year. We're planning to be in DC again. Oh, oh, this is gonna be so much fun. Ms. Behavior is written and produced by Colette Shaw and Kurt Doan. Theme music was written and performed by Kevin McLeod from NCompatech.com. You can contact Ms. Behavior at Ms. BehaviorCollege at gmail.com. That's MSBhavior College at gmail.com.