What's Your Philosophy of Student Conduct? Let's Ask a Real Philosopher!

Ethicist Jeffrey Nesteruk, author of the new book Seeking Your Better Self, explores the deeper purpose of ethics in higher education, the importance of humility, and how to foster meaningful student development through seeking out students' whole selves. We can use Jeff's practical insights on modeling and cultivating ethical self-reflection and supporting students in becoming their better selves. 

Seeking Your Better Self
Contact Jeffrey Nesteruk

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Theme music "Fuzzball Parade" by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Hello and welcome to the Ms. Behavior Podcast. My name is Colette.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

And I'm Kurt.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

And we're your hosts, and we talk about all things college student conduct. And we have a really wonderful guest today. I've been eager to talk to a real life ethicist. And we have Jeffrey Nesterick, who is the author of a brand new book called Seeking Your Better Self, which he was generous enough to give me a sneak peek copy of, and I got a chance to read. He has a very interesting scholarly background, which is a mix of philosophy and law and business, but his specialty is ethics. And his new book is sort of a chance for him to ponder as a real person about philosophical concepts, but in a real life setting. And so I'll probably sprinkle in some of my favorite parts as we talk today. He's an educator who leads with kindness and curiosity. And we just think it would be fun to ponder with you today, Jeff. So welcome.

SPEAKER_03 1:19

Real pleasure to be here. Let's ponder away.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Should we start with our normal icebreaker, Colette?

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

All right. So we love to ask our guests a question about what they were like in college. And specifically, Jeff, did you ever find yourself in trouble in college? And if so, what did that look like?

SPEAKER_03 1:38

Well, um, are you talking about the Saturday night Jeff or the Monday morning Jeff?

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Saturday night Jeff. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

I kind of did both. I kind of did both. You know, that um uh, you know, it's kind of interesting. Uh, when you're talking about college, um one of the books that really affected me right from the start was I read uh an essay by Emerson on nature, and he has this line in there that uh stayed with me. He said, uh, we we should enjoy original relations with the universe, an original relation with the universe. You know, a relationship where we kind of give our personal input, you know, where it says who we are. And that always kind of attracted me, you know, so that that uh I've never been someone who does things because that's what's expected, uh that kind of thing, you know. Um, but I uh uh so so I I certainly did get into uh a little bit of trouble. In fact, uh it was very interesting. This is when I was uh visiting a friend at Dartmouth, and she had a radio show. She had a radio show. And I went in to see her, and we were talking, and we talked uh about a lot of uh fun uh uh aspects of going to college and our relationship. We didn't realize the live, but the mic was live. Uh and so what happened was uh people started calling in. Hey, this show is getting really interesting, but isn't the topic X rather than Y. So that was my one little uh one little slip up there. And uh we're still friends to this day, though. So it it we all always maintained, you know, that it's interesting about behavior, you know, that uh I I wasn't a particularly conscientious uh student in high school. Um I uh I really didn't focus much on uh classes and where I should have. Uh in fact, my memory is uh I took the SATs, right? The SATs, and I ended up doing well with the SATs. And this was my mom's comment. Well, Jeff, we always thought you were smart, but we were never sure. So that gives you a sense of how I was doing a lot other than going to uh uh classes. Um but I will say this as I've matured, I think I've become much more of a rule follower. But what matters is do I understand the purpose of the rules? The rules reflect some values that I uh that I endorse. And I think that's probably something important to talk about when we talk about rules and student behavior, is that the students understand the purpose? Uh uh does it, is it something that reflects their values? Because that is what makes me much more a rule follower today. And so uh to my knowledge, I've never been on another hot mic before, again, but uh it could happen today, I suppose.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

I thought you were gonna say there was an FCC violation involved in this uh hot mic moment. Me too.

SPEAKER_03 4:33

I want to leave a little to your imagination.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Oh, and did we also um hear, Jeff, that before you became a philosopher, you were a rock star?

SPEAKER_03 4:46

Uh stars a little little little high uh on the on the pecking order there, but I I did play in a rock group in high school. And uh it was uh my my big claim to fame. This is sure the level to which I I rose. Uh we were in a battle of band contest, and my band became in third place. Third place. And we won each won$25, which we thought that was super. But I want to let you know there were only five groups, okay? We came in third place. So I guess this meant we were sort of in the bottom half. Uh, and that was the um uh the uh uh end of my rock career that I had this experience because I love music, I listen to music, I love uh rock music. Um uh but everyone kept getting better on the guitar, and I did. So I I realized my talents uh were were elsewhere.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

I've always found it it's it's not the most talented musicians that become the stars, it's the ones that bring their hearts. Well, I'm glad you became a philosopher.

SPEAKER_03 5:47

Oh, thank you. Yeah, if you if you heard my voice, you'd probably be especially glad of that.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

I'm enjoying the voice right now. I think this works for me.

SPEAKER_03 5:57

So you can project. Here's one other little story about voice. Um uh when I was in Grace with this, it must have been first or second grade, I really can't remember, but the music teacher as part of a Christmas concert was having us do it around, you know, right? So she set up different groups around the classroom. And, you know, uh at different points, different groups would enter. And she kept telling my group a little bit quieter, a little bit quieter, right? You know, that and I I realized later it was because I was wasn't speaking on key, but what they did was they made me the announcer of the show. And I was pretty good at that. So, you know, everyone has to find their own talents. That's part of being a good teacher. Find someone's own talents and how they can grow. Don't expect everyone to sing. Some people are good announcers.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

So let's dig into this philosophy thing or the ethics thing. I just told somebody, I want to get madder at my podcast, and I'm gonna tell you something that makes me mad. Okay. Or just annoyed, is uh when we as student conduct practitioners say that we are teaching ethics. And there are some folks, when I go to conferences, they'll introduce themselves and like I'm Colette Shaw, and I work in the Office of Values at such and such university. And I just like get over yourself, university. Like, values are very subjective, they're personal. We're here to help, or what I thought we were here to do is help students explore their values and choose them, not for us to choose them and indoctrinate them. So I wanted to hear from a real ethicist. What is our job here in higher education related to ethics and and values?

SPEAKER_03 7:48

Well, that that's a wonderful question. Uh I think they can come down to earth a little bit. That's what I would say. But, you know, I I um it's kind of an odd thing being an ethicist, right? Because it can very easily come off as kind of holier than thou, you know, uh have your nose up in the air, you know, that kind of thing. And uh it really, it really uh is something you better approach with a lot of humility if you're about to do it. And one of the reasons I became ethicists is is not because I I uh sore the time, in fact, I stumble very often, but it's because that intrigues me. How can I do better? That's what's really going on. And I have a shorthand, I think I mentioned to you at one point uh of what I call the sort of hall monitor version of ethics, right? And and that for me calls to mind, you know, that that kid in grade school is always making everyone stay straight in line, all right. They, you know, the the the teachers having, do you have a pass? Can you go to the bathroom? That sort of thing. You know, that that's sort of um people lay down the rules, all right. And and uh when you lay down the rules, then the next step is to talk about, well, how do you enforce those rules? That and and really what's going on there is kind of is is control and coercion, right? That the the thing I the move I like to make is to say really more substantially, ethics is not about rules, it's about relationships. And it's about how you get better relationships, relationships that are more meaningful, more significant, while you have a a uh a more a more abundant life. Um and uh once you you make that move about it's how you relate to people rather than simply following the moves, the whole whole dynamic shifts. You're you're less likely to be talking about uh you know control or compliance, you're more likely to be talking about um you're more likely to be talking about education and ethics. And so it seems to me that uh ethics is is really something you should probably do more than talk about. And I get weird when people introduce themselves as ethicists, because I thought, uh oh, you know, look on, hold on to my wallet for a second there, you know, that that that uh uh so uh I guess what I I think about is not to go on and and talk about in some high-sounding way, uh, that I'm in a did you say a a department of values? That strikes me as a really odd way of introducing yourself. But rather to think about this is really what the the the book is focused on. It's focused on how to help people think more deeply upon their lives, how to give people the dispositions and and skills to engage in ethical self-reflection. And that's not uh something that we we uh all do well immediately, and it's something we all can do better at. And so I think the notion is uh when you when you think about ethics, is start with a great deal of humility, start by talking about some of the things where you've stumbled, like that radio show, for instance. Uh and the idea would be you're not really trying to uh lay down the law, you're rather trying to engage students to think through their own lives and uh construct their own sense of a good life and how to get there. I you know, I I um for some reason I think of Napoleon a lot here too. I'm sorry for the abrupt thing, but this is what pops into my head. And I was reading a while back, I can't quote him exactly, but it's something like Napoleon said something like this the more I look at the world, the more I believe uh of the inability of brute force to create anything of lasting value, the inability of brute force to create anything of lasting value. Well, now if you translate Napoleon to our more restricted academic environment, that is is is coercion and control. And I believe coercion and control has an inability to uh produce anything of lasting value. And isn't that what we should be about as as educators? You know, it does very little good for someone to, in the moment, follow some rule, and then the moment they're they're not there, they haven't thought about the rule, and they will simply live life as if that rule didn't exist. So a little bit of humility goes a long way here, I think.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Jeff, we just uh last week got to meet the creativity scholar, Keith Sawyer. Uh-huh. And he really um broke my fantasy I had that in his classroom where he teaches creativity, like that was the place students go, like for their joyful class when the other teachers are just lecturing to them. And he was like, no, Colette, actually, students find comfort in being lectured to because it's what they're used to. They like constraints, even though maybe they don't really, but having freedom or you know, being challenged to learn hard things creates anxiety. And so his classes actually promote like just the right amount of anxiety to for learning. And I wondered what you thought of that. We want students to seek out these deeper reflections when maybe they're coming to your ethics class, like just tell us what's on the syllabus, like when is the homework due? What do we have to tell you to get an A? Um, do you experience that?

SPEAKER_03 13:23

Oh, sure, sure. Don't we all want life to be simpler, all of us at one level or another? You know, that uh um, but you know, that's kind of the temptation that ultimately doesn't serve you well. You know, you know, we all uh just tell me what to do. Uh we we all we all have that kind of impulse. Uh you know, when when you were talking about students feeling anxious, uh what popped into my mind was a uh it's actually something mentioned in the book uh on on the essay joy. Uh I I had asked a drama professor who in in in his job asked students to mimic strong emotions like anger or jealousy, right? And I said, What what's the hardest emotion for them to to uh uh portray? And he said, Joy. He said, Joy. And so uh I think that was was really quite interesting, you know, that why why why joy? Because I do think that to experience joy uh you have to uh loosen loosen things up a little bit, right? You you know, rules never take you to joy, right? And so when students want just to be told the rules, uh and there's a certain level of comfort there, a certain level of s of safety, a certain level, well, gee, I don't have to think about that, right? But there's also a certain diminishment of of life and what they can do with it. And and so that uh one of the things you know I would say is uh um if you simply write down the rules, uh you may leave an uh live an obedient, obedient life, but not a joyful life. Not one at all. And so I I I tend to I understand it, you know, and and I certainly have experience sometimes in life, just tell me what to do, but that ultimately cuts off some of the the greater satisfactions and pleasures and and creativity in life. I don't think you can I don't think you can use a um a uh a bullet point to creativity.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

That's making me sad. I'm thinking about a case we just had it was like 30 students were at they had a little birthday party in a student's suite, and they had they had DJ equipment, like this was a proper party, the room was packed, they had some alcohol. And I bet there was some joy there, like good music, good friends.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

I guess to go back to this student again that is part of this essay on joy. What started off the essay is what she said to me, because I was she was she was um anxious and and not not uh worried about how she was doing, and and so I kept trying to dig a little deeper. And she at one point was getting frustrated with me, and she said, Professor Nessel, you don't understand. I don't need to be happy, just successful. I don't need to be happy, just successful, right? And that that's an attitude that does lead to just tell me what to do. I just wanna I just want to um uh make it wherever wherever it is, you know. And it seems to me what's going on is they um she was the way I put it, well, she was uncomfortably incomplete. She was in the process of developing, but it made her uncomfortable. The trick is how can you be comfortably incomplete? I mean, you know, the because we all are incomplete, like we're all in motion in some way, you know. And how to give students that that comfort level being incomplete, uh being incomplete, and see that's that's what you want to do when you dig a little deeper to develop some of those those skills, those dispositions. And so you don't just reach for the rules because they help you at one level, but they really only go to a baseline and leave you below that baseline, right? So the idea here is how can you be comfortably incomplete rather than uncomfortably incomplete? And I think a lot of students are uncomfortably incomplete. They want to, how do you get the A? How do I get it done? How can I be okay, right? And you know, it's it's uh I was reading a recent study of MBAs, and they were asked to uh define their vision, their their version of success. Okay. Uh what does success mean to you? And and they responded, well, that would depend on the organization. They wanted to live up to whatever rules were in that organization, right? And that would be success. And so, and then the the interviewer asked, Well, uh, what kind of organization do you want to join? And they said, Oh, that doesn't matter. In other words, that whatever group they're in, they wanted to succeed, not thinking about what's the purpose, what's the end of that group, you know? And that's where that's where it's important to dig a little deeper, I think. And and uh, you know, I I think I think ethics can make it joyful. I really do.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

It does beg the question, what is what is the purpose then of higher education? Is it to produce um successful people that are only good at their job at the expense of joy or their mental health, or is it to foster an environment where people learn how to become comfortable with maybe not being perfect and finding a balance between things that bring them joy and things that bring them success?

SPEAKER_03 18:39

It does. Isn't that kind of the the question for today in many ways? You know, what what is the purpose, particularly about you know higher education is being judged very much so uh on success, and success kind of narrowly defined too, right? Yeah. Uh that that uh uh you know my sense is though is that if we simply focus on the knowledge and skills we can give students as opposed to focusing on the persons they're becoming. We can give them lots of skills, but will they be able to use them well? Will they be able to use them in ways that are uh help them have the sort of lives they want to have? And again, I I go back to good old Napoleon. I I don't think uh unless you dig deeper, you're not doing something of lasting value. So that that's uh uh you know how to do things of lasting value. The problem is, of course, is all of us, people in in your roles, have a lot of short-term pressures on them, right? Yeah, about right, you know, we don't really care about lot long-term value, you know. We want to make sure that those kids aren't drinking in the dawn, that kind of thing. Um uh but I got a laugh out of that. Could I could I ask why you're laughing?

SPEAKER_00 19:51

I'm just thinking of sound bites I have with students. Like, I I'm not the morality police about the alcohol. Um, I'm not gonna surveil you. I'm gonna I'm not even asking you to stop. I'm just here to make sure you're making informed decisions and that you know the risks and that you have a chance to reflect on what risks you're comfortable taking, and um we're clear about the consequences. Even though I'm not the morality police, at a certain point you run out of warnings. But anyway, when people are equating, I it's a great example. The alcohol in the dorms. It's that that doesn't feel like an ethical well, you know.

SPEAKER_03 20:39

Well, you know, um a a friend of mine told me recently he and I don't know as a compliment up, but he says, Jeff, you live metaphorically. You live metaphorically, you see things metaphorically. And I I thought about it, and um I do have this sense of every kind of situation has more meaning than than what is immediately apparent. Right? There's always more going on. And and I think that what can happen is I'm hearing the bells in the background. Is that uh Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

I live with a uh man who repairs antique clocks. Oh well. At the top of the hour, it's not unusual for about 10 clocks to all be going off if they're calibrated well.

SPEAKER_03 21:28

Can I say that was a very joyful sound? It made me feel a little bit happier. So tell him, okay, he's good at that. He shows telling clocks.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

And I like the way you phrase that. I live with a man who uh he occupies the space. I I'll have to ask him more about the clock situation.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Uh what his name is.

SPEAKER_03 21:51

Very interesting guy, though.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

There are two animals that live in my house, and uh they sometimes snore, but maybe what you need is some nice.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

Clocks though, a nicer sound than this morning, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:03

That that could do it, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

Now you have to remind me what our theme is now, because that was too much fun, actually, right there.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Oh, we were talking about an ethics.

SPEAKER_03 22:15

Um beyond the short term, right? Yeah. And having to well, you know, one of the things that I think about when I think about this living metaphorically, it's just a weird way. Your friends ever tell you something weird and you think, uh, what are you talking about? And um, but I think there's a great deal to be said when you're talking about something like uh, you know, a a beer in in in a hall uh in a dorm, or I think you mentioned someone uh was engaged in um uh shutting off a smoke detector, you know, that kind of thing. You certainly have to boy, you know, uh I feel um I feel you don't I don't need to be a comedian with you. I mentioned examples and you all smile. So you must have that's a very nice, very nice life.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

You're good, you're good at it.

SPEAKER_03 23:01

But but um and certainly, you know, I think there's bottom lines about what about harm? You know, I think they there is a place to to draw lines. No, don't get me wrong, you know, that that is true. But um this notion of living metaphorically, I think it's really important that to, whenever you look at a something that like let's say, you know, drinking in a dorm, uh, you know, turning out a smoke detector, to realize, you know, uh look at it more matter of fact, what else is going on there? What is else is going on? That that um here's the time this happened to me most dramatically. All right. I I was sitting in my office, and I noticed a student outside my office, and he's it's an open door, he's standing outside, but he doesn't come to me sort of shifting from side to side like that, you know. And quite frankly, I was very busy that day. I was trying to get some of that, so I tried to focus on the papers in my desk saying, you know, this is not the best time. That philosophy never works with students, of course, right? You know, so he comes in and he says, Professor Nestra, have I got a case for you? Have I got a case for you? Now, if you you know, if you have a background in law and teach estimates, people are always going to be with cases that they've heard about, you know, and they they want you to justify them or explain them in some way. And uh what happened was the student came in and started describing autoaps, you know, and so I I immediately started thinking about, you know, what are the rules of product liability, if the brakes don't work and so on. I mean, it's a question, it's almost mechanical on my end to start thinking of what are the legal rules that apply to this situation. Um uh but then um as he kept talking, he added that the driver had had perished in the auto accident, right? And moreover, that driver was his favorite high school teacher. And so suddenly what seemed very concrete and seemed very limited got much, much bigger, right? And I started paying a much higher degree of attention to it. But it still tells how he admired this teacher and what she had done in life. Uh uh and and so suddenly the whole conversation shifted from uh, you know, uh analysis and shifted to admiration, admiration, you know. So that one of the ways of of getting out of making things too small when you deal with them is not simply analyze them, but talk about what people admire. What do you admire? You know, the student has who has a video do you admire people who do that? Uh do you think it's uh admirable in some way? Uh do you think people can be harmed by that? When you shift the language to not simply what can go wrong, but what you admire or find praiseworthy, then you begin to get at the student's values, right? And you can talk about more things that are going on that way. So that and that's that happens all the time, uh, where you go in and think it's just this problem and it's actually this problem, right? So uh always uh uh, you know, there's a whole portion of the book where they talk about one virtue uh it's called the attentive eye, you know, perceiving things in your world about how to expand your perception. Uh and the story I use, I don't know if any of you are a bicycle riders. Any of you bicyclists here? Do you want to be bicycling? Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

Well, uh a little bit, a little I can ride a bike on the ride on my own.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

I have a bike in my garage that I haven't been on in six years, but someday. Are there training wheels on it? Or no.

SPEAKER_03 26:33

I wasn't that long. I actually uh I love bike riding, but I actually had training wheels, I don't know, probably to around eight, eight, eight, uh, age eight or something. It took me a while. Once I got the hang of it, but um, I was listening to uh uh uh a friend of mine, and he actually wrote this in his Christmas letter. He's a big bicyclist, all right. And he talked about he goes all these places, but when you're biking on the road, there can be ruts, there can be also this, you have to keep really focused on what's ahead, right there. And he was thinking, you know, well, at one level, looking at at the world this way in that rather narrow way is very helpful because you don't want to fall off the bike, you don't want to get hurt. But he realized he was missing all the scenery around him when he was doing that, right? He was so focused on that rudder something. And so he adopted what he called a uh a uh philosophy of bicycling of the 180 degree view. So you have to look around, look around, you know, right? You know, that and I think that that's something too. You can focus just on that beer can, right? Narrow there, without looking at the 180 degrees. And so one of the things the book does is give some techniques about how to look at that 180 degrees. So that I I think once you look, there's always more going on with people. You know, there's this um great line. One of the lines I live by is uh if you could if you could know the secret history of any man who would find within it pain and suffering enough to disarm all hostility. And so when you're at a party and you're talking to that jerk, why why is he dominating kind of why what's going on? Um and and usually if you dig a little at there's some sort of pain and suffering underneath that. Uh uh, and so uh that notion of of expanding what you're attending, expanding your perception, is the way I try to deal with these look at it's because you know the little things, once you get into them, they're the big things.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

Can we um you and I talked, one of the parts of your book that really lit me up in a nice way is uh I'm gonna quote, the all too common bit of advice in new or stressful situations is simply be yourself. And how as a young person and even as an adult for a long time, I just didn't know what that meant. It it felt I don't know. It's like, does everyone else have this secret that I don't to what their selves are? Because I feel very nervous going into this situation and I don't know who myself is.

SPEAKER_03 29:05

Well, boy, Colla, you and I are so much alike. We really are. I I I can tell you that uh um well again, I I think of these great lines in a movie I once watched, uh, and uh and the basic line is um I'll tell you it's an older guy giving advice to a younger guy. He goes, I'll tell you a little secret. No one, no one really feels like an adult, right? You know, in other words, that we're all kind of struggling and in uh in one way or another. And you know, I think one of the things the book is after and encourage you to engage, think more deeply about your life, you know, engage in ethical self-reflection, is to realize how complex we are. Really complex, you know. So that notion of be yourself, it sounds very uh, you know, Brady Bunch to me, I can say. That's you know, right, you know, that, oh, just be yourself, you know. But uh and the fact of the matter is, you know, what women, we contain multitudes. We really do. Uh and and we're complex and we're inscrutable even to ourselves. Um and particularly, I uh um I felt that as a teenager, Colette, you know, that where we're be yourself, and geez, I I I just felt uh, you know uncertain at so many levels. And the truth of the matter is, even though, you know, the hair may be gray now and everything, and we can dress in business suits, we never live that totally behind. We really don't. And so we should we should kind of accept that in ourselves. That one of the the ways I like to deal with it uh in the book is uh uh to speak philosophically, is that uh philosophers talk about the difference between first and second order desires. I don't know if you heard the distinction first order desires and second order desires. Uh essentially a first order desire is something you desire, something you want. You know, I I want that huge chocolate chip sundae. Right right now, I wouldn't mind eating a sundae. That would feel really good, you know. Um, so first order desires are are things you want, things you desire. But second order desires are things you wish you you want to want. You you wish you wanted, right? You know, so that I may want that, um I may want that big chocolate Sunday right now, okay, but I wish I didn't because my annual checkups next week and I'm trying to lose five pounds, right? That kind of thing, right? You know, that and so one of the ways um uh I asked students to begin to think about how to deal with all that complexity, right? Is say, well, let's let's talk about uh what you want to do and not what you want to want, right? And and you get at a deeper level. You know, because people, everyone has aspirations themselves and want to be better in one way or another. And so then once you can talk about what you want to want, then you can kind of talk about, well, gee, how can I get there, at least, at least step by step. Uh so I I think there's um uh there's a there's something where they said be yourself, it actually I think goes back. I didn't put it this way, but it goes back to in my mind the uh the whole monitor uh form of ethics, right? It's someone else setting the rule. Be yourself. Come on, kiddle, just be yourself, right? And and that's all you have to do, rather than asking you to think about who you are and what that really means. So what's what's important is is is not simply to you know, be yourself uh that uh someone is is um telling you to be, because that's just another rule. The question is what's the self you want to be? And that's what the book is designed to kind of get at. You know, that do you do you ever do that? Can I can I ask you that? Do you ever um go to that second level, maybe use different language, where you talk to the student, not what they want to do, but what they uh wit, what they uh want to want, you know, what were the the the thing the desires they wish they had. Do you ever talk at that level? Is that not language that works for them?

SPEAKER_00 33:01

That's a boy, that's a deep question. When I read that in the book, uh I was feeling like, oh, that could go on forever. Like the first, second, third, fourth, fifth. But now I I'm now that I hear you talking about it, I'm thinking of it in a different way.

SPEAKER_03 33:22

Well, you see it contain multitudes.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

What do I want to want?

SPEAKER_03 33:26

It's not don't you ever I I I uh boy, I really want to watch that next Netflix episode, but I have an important meeting tomorrow, so I really should go to sleep, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Is this one like I wish I wanted to be a better housekeeper? Yeah. But I but I really don't.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

It reminds me of self-actualization almost, like that you're aspiring to something and you're recognizing that you're not there yet. And what's the foundation that's gonna get me to that? If you know that's an interesting, to me, that's an interesting discussion to have with a a student.

SPEAKER_03 34:01

You know, it it gets them beyond simply rule following, you know. Um uh and and you know, think I I I wish uh I wish I was a better housekeeper. Why? Well, maybe you like uh things being beautiful, being calm, right? Maybe that's one of the reasons. Or maybe you you uh uh it helps with that man you live with. Maybe he likes a cleaner house. I don't know, but you can see there are some noble impulses underneath that thing, probably, right? Uh uh, or maybe you wish you didn't care about tidiness so much because you think that's sort of something you want to overcome. But see, that's how you get it, what's going on?

SPEAKER_00 34:38

I did have a student recently, and I hardly ever talk this way, but it it just seemed like the moment he has had a number of small things, but they're starting to pile up. Doesn't show up for meetings, ghosts man, invitations, and finally what did you do? Oh no, um, I was a little manipulative, but his roommates also had to meet with me. And so he was like, I'm just gonna come to my roommate's meetings. I'm like, okay, I got him. And so I kicked the roommate out. I'm like, you stay. And then I really did try to open my heart to him, but I talked to him about I was like, and you need to start doing some reputation repair. Yeah. And he started nodding and he smiled, and it was the first smile. And like, wow, I would not have said that to most students because I don't think that any of their behavior should ever change their reputation. Like, who cares? You had a beer. That's not you. That's a choice you made. I don't know. Is that kind of what you're talking about? At this point, he is talking about like what is your identity that you want to be at this place? Because your behaviors have impacted staff, your peers. You don't have trust anymore. We want you to be in community. How do you spend the next three years when nobody trusts you?

SPEAKER_03 36:17

And don't you want to be a person that people will trust? That's exactly what I'm talking about. You know, the how do you uh I remember once, you know, this was uh in a more kind of philosophic discussion in a class, and a lot of times I I put cases or dilemmas to students, and I asked, I would ask them, well, what would you do? And he goes, Well, do you want to know what I would do or what I should be?

SPEAKER_02 36:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:44

And I said, Well, uh, do you want to talk about the person you are or the person you could be? You say he said kind of like I throw it back at him like that. And he said, Oh, well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. So that's getting at that somewhat kind of uh deeper level going on. Uh, you know, one of the things I see as a professor, and it's probably even more so, you probably even do more um uh in your particular roles, is that so many people I just want someone who'll listen to them. They really just want you to sit there and listen. They have all these great courses in public speaking, which have a course in public listen. I mean, people would really be much better at that, right? You know, you could teach it, both of you could teach it, I think, you know. But I I uh I I do remember there's one point where a student uh wanted to get into one of my classes, and it was simply over enrolled, and he was a sophomore. Usually this was for juniors and seniors. I said, listen, come, I just I just can't do it. But he kept talking to me, talking to me, talking to me. I said, Listen, what do you want me to do for you? And he said, I just want you to listen. I just want you to listen. Uh and I just learned, I just learned uh the other day the student was being accepted to uh a graduate program in clinical psychology uh at University of Columbia University. So I mean he really had a lot going on for him, you know, but at that point he just needed someone to talk to. Why don't we teach more of that? Can I ask you that? Why don't we teach more of that?

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Well, there's humility. You you mentioned humility before. I'm gonna quote something from your book that I think speaks to this. I have often felt in my teaching career that many students only share their most superficial selves. It is always gratifying in a moment when their more capacious selves break through. For education to work, you have to bring your whole self to the endeavor. And you're talking about like students bringing their whole selves and making it safe, but sometimes the only way for that breakthrough is for you to share a little, like we've all been here, we have all made decisions that hurt somebody or that we regret. You said it, ethics is a relationship.

SPEAKER_03 38:52

There comes a point when you reveal something about yourself that invites the other person to reveal something about their self, right? You know, and my goodness, I have so many mistakes to talk about. I could teach a class on those mistakes, you know. And when you do that, it can make students feel a little bit more comfortable too. So I I think it's uh it's quite important to have students bring their whole selves when and when you stumble. There's a there's a tremendous emphasis on performing rather than learning, I guess I would put it. You know, that the there are students who don't want to raise their hand unless they're absolutely sure they have the right answer. And that that inhibits true learning. It really does. And so I start my classes by saying, and I when I teach in in a law class, I say, here's um here's what's gonna happen. I'm gonna put hypotheticals to you. I'm gonna ask you questions, all right, and I'm gonna ask you to wrestle with things and you don't yet know the answer. No one could expect you to know the answer, right? Uh, but uh what I want to tell you is there is no penalty, no penalty before the exam, no penalty to getting it wrong in a class. In fact, that's part of that's part of learning. It's it's like it's like learning to play the guitar, which I never did very well, you know, that uh or learning to shoot foul shots, whatever it is, uh you have to uh make a number of bad moves before you learn the better move. And so I like to encourage students to to feel free to make the bad moves. And there does come a point when you need to evaluate them. That's part of our job, too. And that's probably the equivalent of when you have to say, well, here's the consequence of breaking this rule. But I I think that point is is kind of far out. It's not the starting point, right? So for the first half of the class, it's essentially impossible for the student to anything to lower his grade. But then the the evaluation kept coming, and then uh and so they know the deal. It's uh it's something that uh you know, we have to let students be uncomfortably incomplete. Uh I'm sorry, I keep going in the wrong way, comfortably incomplete. Comfortably. See, I've made a mistake, right?

SPEAKER_00 41:01

How dare you?

SPEAKER_03 41:03

But but uh but how do we make see what maybe how do we make students if I could uh really how do we make students feel comfortably incomplete? Comfortable without knowing all the answers. See, because part of the then you should tell us the rules, that's because they're uncomfortably incomplete. How do you make it feel more comfortably incomplete? Uh I tell them they're adults in training, is what I told them. And they they kind of like that sort of thing. But how do you make people feel comfortable with feel uh being incomplete? Because you're not gonna grow unless unless you feel that one.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

I keep thinking about this whole be yourself comment and how problematic it is to, especially for first-time students coming to campus. Because the other thing I think about it in college is that's where you're supposed to figure out who yourself is. So uh we're taking people who are coming from a very structured environment, their home life, and um putting them in a new environment where they don't necessarily maybe know the rules, the structure feels ambiguous, and we tell them, uh, figure it out. And when we, you know, I think about my time as a conduct officer, we're meeting with them when they push against the boundary. And um the quote you said about Napoleon is kind of resonating with me. They're not going to learn anything if in a structured environment where they feel like we are just people who are practitioning in uh in rules. So I like the idea of in these like uncertain situations, giving them the tools to navigate and developing relationships where they feel like we're listening to them and that we are somebody that they can access when they are experiencing uncertainty. And hopefully that's leading to some level of self-actualization and getting to a point where maybe they know who they are versus telling them to be who they are.

SPEAKER_03 43:00

I mean, it it is a weird thing to tell someone to be who they are, right? It it's it it's it shouldn't be an external type thing. And uh and I I think well, one of the things that happens is they have a lot of a lot of outside influences, even when they're on a college campus, right? And and so how do you how do you make sure they feel uh able to experiment without going off the rails? My advice is never um you know, ask whether the mic is hot before you start talking. But but uh how do you you know and because one of the things that goes on uh that for me is colleges are not and they shouldn't be hermetically sealed environments, right? Where where um where uh people others control everything students see and do. In fact, I would think, at least m my perspective is we occupy A shrinking mind share for that. You know, less and less, because there's so much out there that you have contact with immediately. And the the the idea that we can simply sort of tell them what to do really doesn't hold because there's a lot of people um claiming their attention, often doing it more entertainingly or enticingly than we do, right? So that I think our role is to think about their own self-development, how are they going to handle all these external things coming to them?

SPEAKER_01 44:37

So I'm curious, Jeff, if you were suddenly the dean overseeing conduct officers and you know the truths of what these students are experiencing when they come into this setting, what advice do you give to a student conduct officer to have to foster an environment that's gonna result in um real long-term positive outcomes for the student versus that in-the-moment band-aid slap of like we're gonna get them to stop the behavior?

SPEAKER_03 45:09

Well, come on, ask me a hard question. First of all, if I was never named Dean, I would think perhaps the college had made a mistake. But you know, to begin with, but but I I would try to do it well. The sense I get from talking with different people, part of the consulting I do and talk with people sort of at various parts or dynamic, you know, levels of the college, is people don't always feel whoever is their manager really uh, first of all, has their back if things go south in one way or another, right? And ultimately trust them, ultimately trust them. And so the I I idea would be um my bias is always um uh to uh listen, you are the expert in this, not me. Uh I'm uh I hired you because I uh was impressed by you. I think you're good at what you do. And I realize there's gonna be times where there are conflicts and tensions either way, but I want to let you know um you should feel free to exercise that professional judgment we hired you for. And if you goof, because you you'll goof at some point, we all make mistakes. I'm not gonna come down on you. I'm gonna have your back and we're gonna think about how to go forward. That my sense is there's a lot of people at colleges that don't feel they're supported by uh the people they are reporting to at one level or another. Um and that just strikes me as uh downright weird. I sometimes say, you know, we need to have colleges that are as good as the people who work there. And and that all isn't always isn't always the case. Uh so uh I I'm not I'm not I'm not uh um anchoring for a dean job. Um I uh my my mom once told me if you became dean, you'd probably be fired in a week. Um uh that uh that uh but but but do you ever you know that that that's the thing, you know, you you so many people nowadays that we live in a very anxious time, but I think a lot of uncertainty, uh a lot of upheaval, uh a lot of things where uh the way things were going, the the norms are are are um not their news, right? And so in those sort of situations, people are always saying, well, uh what what could happen if I do this? Why, you know, what could happen to go wrong? You know, that and people tend to be very careful. That that that is something that ultimately doesn't let people be be good at their jobs, you know. Um uh now uh uh having never been a dean, uh maybe I'm missing something you know that is incredibly simple. And once this video goes out, I think I've I've uh cut off that that career path for me, perhaps.

SPEAKER_00 47:52

Actually, I think um, and there's new technology now with our podcast where people can just go to the show notes and click a link to text us for feedback about this or leave us a voicemail. Um, because I think a lot of people just want to be heard with that message that you just gave, Jeff. Like we just want to be supported because we're always in a role. If you I think if you do it right, half of people think you're too soft, half of think people think you're too hard. You're making me ask. This is so great to have a philosopher here because now I am like, oh, thinking big. We have a job where we get to meet students, sit down with them, and have these conversations and get philosophical with them. Those are just the students that got caught. Yeah, yeah. And that's probably a very small percentage of our students, many of whom did the same behavior, probably worse for some of them. How are we helping educate them? And if we did that work, I would take back everything I said at the beginning of this show about Lottie Da, the Office of Integrity and Values. Well, maybe we could be the Office of Ethics and Values and Integrity if we did that education with faculty, you know, with our residential folks, with like there are constant opportunities to be having these philosophical conversations with students and ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 49:36

That's wonderfully put. I I I um let me ask you this is that one of the things uh you sometimes see is, well, the professors, they're the educators, right? And then other people are not the educators. The truth is we're all educators. And what you're saying is we should be educators. And you have you have the opportunity to do it in a very intimate way, uh in ways that uh can have a big impact. And why why aren't they letting you um be involved in in some of the let's call it admirable, praiseworthy endeavors that students are doing? Why why not, why not, why, why, why um have your role like this? Why not like it have like that? There's a a notion in ethics that only kicks in when things go wrong, right? You know, that that there's only you know, you know, that that um uh as long as you don't get caught.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

Yeah, as long as you follow the rules, you're a good person.

SPEAKER_03 50:40

Well, boy, what a what a a depleted ver version of what a uh a good person is, you know.

SPEAKER_00 50:45

Uh oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:47

It's uh it's just uh uh we um you know one of the things I asked in the book is uh I I I ask I I ask students to raise their aspirations and whatnot, that to to to consider the possibility that you're better than you you feel you are, you know. And uh the there's uh a wonderful quote um that that I've always liked. It is not by ourselves that we become better than we are. It is not by ourselves that we become better than our, right? So it takes this whole whole um community to make something like that happen. And why don't we in some ways we don't let our jobs allow us to be genuine full parts of the community?

SPEAKER_00 51:34

Why don't we close on that beautiful note, Jeff? I really appreciate you kind of closing the circle on community.

SPEAKER_03 51:44

Yes, yeah, wonderful. And what community can do for you. That's a wonderful place to stop, you know. Can we have the the uh clocks go off at the end, though? Just be a nice little uh well listen, it's really such a pleasure. It really is, you know, that um and uh I'd uh I I'd love if people comment on it. If people uh people should feel free to um uh uh email me or contact me. I really hope the book is starting a conversation. And it appears to be, it's getting a pretty good reaction right now. A book club has been started for it already, you know. So that was sort of a kind of neat thing, you know. And and so um I'd love to hear from folks. Uh if if they and I'm easy to reach because I'm all over the internet, but I hope we're helping starting good conversations.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

I hope so too. The book is Seeking Your Better Self by Jeffrey Nesterek. Thank you, sir. I um enjoyed every minute of this.

SPEAKER_03 52:40

Me too. Thank you, guys. And by the way, let me just say if your deans aren't telling you, I think you're doing good work. Well, take care. Thank you. Yes. Okay. Take care. I take care. It's a real pleasure. Bye-bye now.

SPEAKER_00 52:58

Ms. Behavior is written and produced by Colette Shaw and Kurt Doan. Theme music was written and performed by Kevin McLeod from NCompotech.com. You can contact Ms. Behavior at Ms. Behavior College at gmail.com. That's MS Behavior College at gmail.com.